Need Help with Rusted Brake Bleeders

[whem2fish]

hope all goes well take your time its 100 here
dave

[Shore2Shore]

Good luck with getting the bleeders freed up and replaced. Have you had any success in getting them to shift yet?

All the advice in this thread is great and will keep it all in mind just incase we have any problems like this ,I especially like the plumbing elbow creating the fluid bath!!

[TitanicPilot]

Originally Posted by Pauland Ro

Good luck with getting the bleeders freed up and replaced. Have you had any success in getting them to shift yet?

All the advice in this thread is great and will keep it all in mind just incase we have any problems like this ,I especially like the plumbing elbow creating the fluid bath!!

To follow up on the bleeders and the elbows, I have to go back in time a little. Just a week ago today, I got tired of waiting for the rust penetrant to soak in so I decided to try something else in the mean time.

We (my wife, Marilyn and I) first did a race car bleed* on just the master cylinder by breaking loose the lines coming out of the cylinder body. After getting a good flow there, we went back to the long line I had replaced and did a race car bleed* on it using the the rear line fitting as the bleeder. Well what do you know, we got a bunch of bubbles out! We repeated the exercise a few times until the bubbles were gone and then we had a rock-hard pedal!

We were so excited about the brakes that we immediately took the coach out for a test drive, completely forgetting about the elbows full of rust penetrant.... The brakes were dynamite! Problem solved.

When I went to check the elbows yesterday I discovered that the whirlwind created by the tires had emptied them out... Duh. So my advice on this method so far is that if you want to drive it while the elbows are installed, plug them up to avoid that "Duh" moment....

I filled the elbows up again, so I'll give them a few more days before I try the fittings and then we can at least evaluate the idea.

*race car bleed:

1. If possible, have one end of 18" of clear plastic tube over the bleeder and leading down into a container to be able to see the bubbles.
2. Pump the pedal several times.
3. On the last pump keep the pedal pressed down to create as much pressure as possible.
4. Open the bleeder, pushing the pedal down the rest of the way.
5. Hold the pedal down and close the bleeder.
   
6. Slowly let up the pedal.
7. Keep checking to make sure master cylinder doesn't run dry.
   
8. Repeat from #2 until no more bubbles and pedal is hard at top of stroke.
   

[Senior Chief]

Race car bleed; Requires one old car, one wife in the driver's seat, one crabby husband who hates to work on brakes..

"pump it...pump it...pump it...hold it down...ok...let it back up...pump it...pump it...hold it down...ok...let it up... how is it now?" "what?" "HOW IS IT NOW???!!!" "It's fine." "How fine?" "Right near the top! Quit yelling!"

Repeat 3 more times

[Shore2Shore]

Ah the "race car bleed" !! Remember helping my Dad with this tradition in owning old cars!

Just out of curiosity Dave , where is the master cylinder located on Your PaceArrow?

Ours is hidden well with only visible access via the drivers side fenderwell. Turning the wheels may aid access, although still looks like I need to be a contortionist!!!

Was possibly thinking of trying to find where under the floor it is and making an access panel... Looking at the thing its going to be Fun getting a bottle of fluid under there to top off/fill the master cylinder.

[TitanicPilot]

Originally Posted by Pauland Ro

....

(1) Just out of curiosity Dave , where is the master cylinder located on Your PaceArrow?

(2) Ours is hidden well with only visible access via the drivers side fenderwell. Turning the wheels may aid access, although still looks like I need to be a contortionist!!!

(3) Was possibly thinking of trying to find where under the floor it is and making an access panel... Looking at the thing its going to be Fun getting a bottle of fluid under there to top off/fill the master cylinder.

(1) Our Master cylinder is also located behind the splash panel. Don't be tempted to remove the panel permanently as it contributes to cooling the engine compartment, exhaust manifold, etc. on that side. The air has to be routed close to the engine to cool it and that is what the panel does. In fact, I had to make a shield for the right side since they didn't have one from the factory on my coach.

(2) Turning the front wheels might help access but you'll have to be a skinny contortionist....

On this last go around I found that if I crawled under the front end, I could reach up behind the splash shield and do everything I needed to. I could remove the lid, add fluid, (Use a mirror on a stalk and a flashlight to check the level), put the lid back on, and even bleed the cylinder.

My strong suggestion to you would be to first blast all the dirt, rust, and crud away from the master cylinder that you can with high pressure air. If you are flat on your back underneath, it's hard to be real meticulous with dirt, so just get rid of it before it contaminates your brake fluid. And wear safety glasses or goggles for the inevitable drip in your face....

(3) On our coach there seems to be some underfloor support framework that might interfere with such a scheme.

[bsinmich]

My '96 Pace Arrow did have an access panel above the master cylinder. Since having a Workhorse Chassis my bleeders have never had a chance to develop any rust

[TitanicPilot]

Originally Posted by bsinmich

My '96 Pace Arrow did have an access panel above the master cylinder. Since having a Workhorse Chassis my bleeders have never had a chance to develop any rust

Hi BS,
How about some pictures of the panel so we can see how the factory does it?

[leadman]

I worked in Michigan as a mechanic for many years. We would heat a part and then use cold water to quench it. The contraction would help break the rust loose. You could even heat the bleeder this way, just don't try to remove it when it is hot as it will probably break off.
Have you thought about taking the calipers apart to do this? They are not very hard to rebuild. usually just one seal in the housing, boot around the piston, bleeder, maybe some pins and bushings. An automotive machine shop should be able to do the work if you don't want to.

[bsinmich]

Originally Posted by TitanicPilot

Hi BS,
How about some pictures of the panel so we can see how the factory does it?

I haven't had that MH for many years. It is a little late to take pictures now. Sorry about that. We looked up from the master cylinder and found there was a panel there so we lifted the carpet under the driver to find it.

[TitanicPilot]

Originally Posted by leadman

I worked in Michigan as a mechanic for many years. We would heat a part and then use cold water to quench it. The contraction would help break the rust loose. You could even heat the bleeder this way, just don't try to remove it when it is hot as it will probably break off.
Have you thought about taking the calipers apart to do this? They are not very hard to rebuild. usually just one seal in the housing, boot around the piston, bleeder, maybe some pins and bushings. An automotive machine shop should be able to do the work if you don't want to.

Hi Leadman,
Thanks for the information. I did try heating and quenching already with no luck. I'm also sad to report that, while my pvc elbows worked like a charm to keep the fitting soaking in PB Blaster and my special sauce for a week, neither one of them penetrated enough to loosen the fittings. I didn't have a chance to try the wintergreen oil yet.

By bleeding at the line fitting, I was able to get most of the air out and achieve a hard, high pedal, so I'm not going any farther with the system now... We want to do some traveling instead of wrenching for a change.

Thanks for all the ideas, suggestions, and experience shared here; this is a great forum!

[RJay]

Originally Posted by Senior Chief

Race car bleed; Requires one old car, one wife in the driver's seat, one crabby husband who hates to work on brakes..

"pump it...pump it...pump it...hold it down...ok...let it back up...pump it...pump it...hold it down...ok...let it up... how is it now?" "what?" "HOW IS IT NOW???!!!" "It's fine." "How fine?" "Right near the top! Quit yelling!"

Repeat 3 more times

Senior Chief
That's the best break line bleed procedure I've ever come across, but are you able to get all the air out of the fluid?

[luebkeb]

if they are really stuck, a torch (not propane) is the only way to get them out. You need a Mapp gas torch or oxy-acetylene to get it hot enough.

in my opinion, propane torch isn't hot enough, and you end up heating the whole thing too long and then the heat spreads where it shouldn't (wrecking seals and such) get it good and hot, but do it quickly. brake parts are designed to take some heat. so if you do it fast, heat the area you need, and get out, you should minimize the heat to the whole unit. oxy-acetylene is the best way to go!

get a hot torch, heat the area immediately around the bleeder, have your 6-point socket wrench ready and remove it right after you heat the area.

the other guy was right to, if you remove the caliper and put it in a vice, you will have easier time of it. you can also remove the piston and seals to prevent damage, but honestly, i've never had to do that.

also, i just called my local parts store, they had rebuilt calipers for my p-30 for $40. i think that is a helluva deal, new piston and seals, new bleeder. popped the old calipers off and had new ones on withing 15 minutes...

good luck..

[TitanicPilot]

[QUOTE=ASD123;715317]1. Add brake fluid to the XXXXXXXXX Bleeder tank.

2. Firmly connect the supplied adapter to brake master cylinder and pump the XXXXXXXXXX Brake Bleeder to pressurize.

3. Starting with the furthest away brake bleeder valve (typically on the rear of the vehicle), open brake bleeder valve and purge the air and old brake fluid from your brake system.

For more info visit: XXXXXXXXXXXX/QUOTE]

Spammer!