Insurance, Legal License &The Law. (LONG)

[Arctic Owl]

Just some info to pass on that I just received from my Insurance Co. Last week. If any of you are with Joseph Martin Insurance you may have received this also.
What legal license should you have and are you covered, has been an issue with some members of my trailer club for a lot of years now. We all pull heavy trailers and drive 3/4 & 1ton trucks. One Insurance Co. even issued a letter to one of our club members stateing they would cover you even if your vehicle was found to be pulling a 5ver too heavy for the tow vehicle. Well, now it is official from at least one Insurance Co. and the MTO what is correct. Now remember, do not shoot the messenger, I am just passing on good info from what I consider a VERY good scorce.
Quote, (In Ontario there are 12 different license classes. each one qualifies you to drive a different type of vehicle.The class of license you have MUST match the type of vehicle you are driving.
A "G" class license is the most common in Ontario and allows you to drive any car, van, or small truck or combination of vehicle and towed vehicle up to 11,000kg (24,250lbs), provided the vehicle being TOWED is NOT over 4,600kg (10,141lbs).
For people who tow large camper trailers, travel trailers, or 5th Wheel trailers, it is possible & probable, to exceed the weight restrictions of a "G" license.
If your trailer exceeds 4,600kg (10,141lbs)or if the total weight of your tow vehicle & trailer exceeds 11,000kg (24,250lbs), you WILL be in violation of the G class rules & in effect, Will be Driving WITHOUT a License.
Without a valid license, your insurance may be NULL & VOID in the event of an accident or claim.
If your tow vehicle and trailer combination exceeds the weight limit you should obtain an "A" class license.
Just thought you all might find this bit of information interesting & informative. Do with it as you like. Me, I'm going for my "A" next week.

Reg Reich.

[Arctic Owl]

Just some info to pass on that I just received from my Insurance Co. Last week. If any of you are with Joseph Martin Insurance you may have received this also.
What legal license should you have and are you covered, has been an issue with some members of my trailer club for a lot of years now. We all pull heavy trailers and drive 3/4 & 1ton trucks. One Insurance Co. even issued a letter to one of our club members stateing they would cover you even if your vehicle was found to be pulling a 5ver too heavy for the tow vehicle. Well, now it is official from at least one Insurance Co. and the MTO what is correct. Now remember, do not shoot the messenger, I am just passing on good info from what I consider a VERY good scorce.
Quote, (In Ontario there are 12 different license classes. each one qualifies you to drive a different type of vehicle.The class of license you have MUST match the type of vehicle you are driving.
A "G" class license is the most common in Ontario and allows you to drive any car, van, or small truck or combination of vehicle and towed vehicle up to 11,000kg (24,250lbs), provided the vehicle being TOWED is NOT over 4,600kg (10,141lbs).
For people who tow large camper trailers, travel trailers, or 5th Wheel trailers, it is possible & probable, to exceed the weight restrictions of a "G" license.
If your trailer exceeds 4,600kg (10,141lbs)or if the total weight of your tow vehicle & trailer exceeds 11,000kg (24,250lbs), you WILL be in violation of the G class rules & in effect, Will be Driving WITHOUT a License.
Without a valid license, your insurance may be NULL & VOID in the event of an accident or claim.
If your tow vehicle and trailer combination exceeds the weight limit you should obtain an "A" class license.
Just thought you all might find this bit of information interesting & informative. Do with it as you like. Me, I'm going for my "A" next week.

Reg Reich.

[brad03ca]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> If your trailer exceeds 4,600kg (10,141lbs)or if the total weight of your tow vehicle & trailer exceeds 11,000kg (24,250lbs), you WILL be in violation of the G class rules & in effect, Will be Driving WITHOUT a License.
Without a valid license, your insurance may be NULL & VOID in the event of an accident or claim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the info Owl. How many of us were aware of this??? probably not many!!!!.

Seems kinda on par for the Insurance companies too...we'll take your premium payments, and If we get the chance....will deny any pay-outs.

[Arctic Owl]

Well Brad, it is my humble opinion that not only are the Insurance Co. culprits in this lack of, & incorrect information about licensing, but so are the MANY dealers who tell you, "you can pull this trailer with that 1/2 ton." Or yeh, you can drive that large Motor Home with a "G" License.
It is time they all came out of the closet, so to speak, & follow the laws of the province , not their incorrect sales position. I have being told MANY times by RV dealers & fellow RVers that I do not need a class "A". I knew it was wrong & did not want to go through a hassle of getting the correct license but now I am going to do it. I used to have a Class "A" but dropped it as I was not using it commercially.
I will let everyone know what I find out about upgrading after I vivit my local MTO office.
Cheers everyone.

Reg

[Skip298]

The weight of my trailer unloaded is 4264 kg/9381 lb, (as noted on permit)its max is 5409 kg/11900 lb as per Brochure), my truck is 2843 kg/6255 lb GVWR(as noted on permit) the RGW is 3000 kg and its wt is 4491 kg/9880 lb ( listed doorpost wt)I have the 9900Kg tow rating... So..when I am hooked up and the trailer is unloaded I am legal with a "G" lic at 7107 kg/15640 lb..3893 kg/8610 lb less than the max which is 11000 kg/24250 lb.. The only glitch would come if I loaded up on water and had full waste tanks which would be approx 8252 kg./18155 lbs(which I never do)..I would be legal in combo weight but not in towed vehicle wt(over the 4600 kg vs 5408 kg/ (1800 lbs over )..

Stan Birch was promoting this a couple of years ago..Although I agree with him and you,(not only on the legal issue of licences but on the fact that the insurance will screw you if they can.. I cannot see it happening unless of course its a gross overage..the weight scales/fines dont even come into play until the weight is at least 100 Kg over and then, in order to prove the overwieght amount they would have to weigh just about everything.. As far as getting a "A" class dr licence, I would wonder if most of the people that do tow the really big stuff,,(snowbirds etc) would even qualify for the licence due to the stict physical health requirements?.. I believe "D" licence would suffice, even though it is not the right weight class it shows an attempt to be as close to legal as possible on the part of the RVer...

[Arctic Owl]

Well let me tell you a little personal experience with, 'What I think is right & What IS right.' A friend of mine & myself own the exact same truck. 1999 Ford F-350 CrewCab Duallys. (11,000kg rating)We both have Vanity license plates. We were told by our respective local licensing office that since we did not use the trucks commercaly & only used for towing our large 5vers. We did not need an annual truck inspection certificate on our trucks. Last summer my friend driving up in Parry Sound area got stopped by the MTO & OPP & was informed he was told wrong & if he did not correct the problem he was lible for a very large fine & his vehicle was illegal on the raod.
So it does not matter what you may think is correct, The law is there, it can & will be inforced, & you do not need to be in an accident to have that happen.
I just pass the information on. As I said before you can do with it as you wish & you can interpet it any way you wish. I have rechecked the law & reread the Highway Traffic Act & Ontarion Vehicle Licensing Requirements & we RVers have NO special privilages at all. We have NO exceptions. The ONLY reason we are not required to pull into provincial weight scales is because the MTO's in each province do not have people or time to handle anything but commercial traffic. We also do not presently pose a safety threat to the public that has caught anyones attention as large commercial trucks have on our nations highways.
It does not matter what class you believe will suffice, the Onario Highway Traffic Act determines what is the correct license. I believe, & I will find out more, but it is possible that we may not be required to have the strict physical health requirements as we are NOT commercial. I will find out & pass the info along.
I personnaly think the province SHOULD have a class for RV operators that may be similar to the class "A" but not require as strict a medical. I have seen a LOT of eldrly people driving some pretty big RV's who SHOULD require a medical clearance from their DRs to be driving period. I watched a lady in her late 60's or early 70's take 5 minutes to get INTO her car at the shopping mall yesterday. Then after she got IN the car she had to use her cane to help her close the car door. We all think we can do it. We all think we need our indepentance to drive but reality needs to set in sooner for some of us. JMHO

Reg

[Route 66]

Many folks don't have the proper license, or drive overweight rigs, or don't have toad brakes, etc. because they don't believe it's really that important.

I don't know how things work in Canada, but down here in the bottom half of North America, it seems some folks want to sue you if they think they can collect any amount.

I don't ever want to sued, even if I've done no wrong. The expense, hassle, and stress is not worth taking any chances on not taking every precaution to be 100% legal.

I prefer to err on the side of caution.

[Skip298]

Arctic Owl......If your truck is over 4501 Kg you need a yellow inspection sticker on the window, and a safety inspection every year..If you have a truck that has this requirement, any trailer you tow...including boat/ski doo/garden trailers also require a sticker and a safety inspection certificate..a TT and a 5th Wheel are exempt from that requirement and do not require inspection certificates.. An F350 dually CC is over the 4501 Kg weight limit..

[Arctic Owl]

Yep Skip I know. However, My chum & I were both told by 2 different licensing locations, we did not. They were wrong & it almost cost my chum a fine. Having worked in the trucking industry almost all my adalt life, I am very much aware of the requirements. Thanks for the reminder though because my mind is not as long as it used to be.

Reg

[Skip298]

I know about the MTO licencing office staff...Just the opposite happened to my friend..He bought a new F250 CC diesel SB SRW..when he went to renew licence his plates they forced him to go get a SSC and sticker...I gave him all the info needed to correct the problem and they rrefused.. I finally had to call a friend in the MTO office in Toronto to get it straightenned out...

[Arctic Owl]

OK people. Here is the OFFICIAL word from the MTO & the Ontario Licensing authority.
My truck is rated & licensed for 11,200lb (5,080kg). Actual truck weighs 8,300 (3764kg) My trailer is rated at 16,000lbs (7,257kg). Combination, 24,300lbs (11,021kg).
8,300 (3257kg)+ 16,000lb (7,257kg).
As you can see I have 3 issues;
1. Towed vehicle over the 4600kg (10,141lb) criteria.
2. Truck is under its rating of 11,200lb. (5080kg).
3. Combination is over allowed rating;
Trailer-Allowed: 10,141lb (4600kg).
Trailer-Actual: 16,000lb (7,257kg).
Truck-Allowed: 11,200lb (5,080kg).
Truck-Actual: 8300lb (3,257kg).
Allowed Combination: 24,250lb (11,000kg).
Actual Combination: 24,300lb (11,200kg).
As you can see, I am just over on the combination by 440lbs (200kg). So not really good on the combination criteria.
The part that kills me & requires me to have an "A" Class license is the 'Towed Vehicle' weight.
Now, the part that really becomes an issue for those of us in this situation is.
Class "A" requires a medical yearly when you are over 65 years old. BTW, That medical is NOT that dificult.
Class "A" requires an annual drivers test with the combination you will be driving for your license criteria.
This means I have to have an annual medical.
I have to write a written test.
I have to perform the exact same walk around inspection & driving test as a commercial truck driver must do.
The only thing I DO NOT have to do is have an Air Brake Indorsement.
When I bring my vehicles into the Driver Test area. THEY MUST meet ALL safety criteria or I will NOT be tested or pass.
This means I must insure my trailer is up to standard. (No Problem)
My truck MUST have an 'Up to Date' Annual Inspection Certificate.
Without ALL this I will NOT be able to pull my trailer ANYWHERE in Ontario. Not even OFF the test area.
I can legally drive my truck ANYWHERE with my "G" License but NOt my trailer.
Now, having written all this information I must say. I know of MANY drivers out there in Ontario pulling their trailers illegaly. Be ready because you CAN & probably WILL be pulled over by an MTO vehicle inforcement vehicle & or the OPP this summer or in the next year ahead.
As truck inspections are completted then they will be turning their attention to RV type vehicles that LOOK or appear unsafe. I have been passed on these words of caution.
IF, you are INVOLVED in an accident with an RV type vehicle, be prepared for some in-depth investigation & inspection. ANY violations will result in VERY big fines.
Just some information I have found. Do with it as you wish. Me, I'm biting the bullet & protecting myself & my wife from any issues. I either get an "A" License or I get a smaller trailer. Thats the bottom line.

Reg

[Skip298]

I rewrote my initial post to reflect your post on the weights issue... I personally think that smaller is the "weigh" to go....there are a lot of pitfalls to the "A" licence issue..I know of 3(I recall that you were a driver, so u would also know) close freinds that are parked because of the MTO health and medical exams..doing the test and having a SSC every year is going to be costly...IMHO...I will follow your example there and see where I stand, but I do beleive I am just a little on the trailer weight if I were loaded..

[The Shadow]

I had not looked into this forum for some time until today when I asked a question regarding CSA Approval.

Let me fill you in on something I've been doing.

I recently met with my MPP to discuss most of the points raised here. I have pointed out a host of inconsistencies in the OHTA and several areas that I believe can provide a successful challenge under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Sadly, while I think I have an answer for the Class D issue for MH owners, the same solution may not work for the Class A issue for trailers and 5ers over 4600KG.

I can give you the issue in a nutshell as I did for my MPP.

It would seem that I need a Class D license in Ontario for a motorhome with or without toad that together weighs more than 11,000 KG. It should be noted that many Class A gassers will be swept into this category. Further, I need a Z Endorsement for my air brakes and have to take a written test every 3 years - and then annually at age 65.

Now, follow this carefully because it is one of the key points. I can move to BC, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Quebec, etc and my Class G license will AUTOMATICALLY be exchanged for a Class 5 (all provinces other than Ontario have virtually standardized on the license classes) license. I will (in all but Quebec) have my Z Endorsement transferred over as well.

Now, in each of those provinces I WILL BE LEGAL with respect to driving my MH and I will be able to drive it in ONTARIO legally as there is complete reciprocity province to province, state to state (with 3 exceptions) and state to province. So, my Ontario qualification that will not let me drive in Ontario will, if I leave, then let me drive here with NO FURTHER TESTING.

There is a section of our Charter of Rights and Freedoms that addresses this. If we are a risk without a Class D - then so is just about every driver of every MH entering Ontario and thus the Province is placing us at risk. If Ontario refuses to make a change to bring its licensing in line with the rest of Canada and most of the US, my plan is to launch a Charter Challenge requiring the province to either change OR to force it to ban all motorhomes entering the province if the drivers do not have equivalents to Class D. This will require them to change their reciprocal agreements to delete motorhomes.

As to the Z annual test at 65 - well, also a good chance the Charter will rule it out. The Law Commission of Canada has recognized that age based testing is on weak ground and they feel that the retesting at age 80 will come before the courts for a Charter challenge. Age 65 tied to retirement age - which is gone.

Further, most US states do not have an air brake endorsement requirement and thus the province is being unfair allowing US drivers and Quebec drivers into Ontario when they don't meet our standard. If we are really unsafe, so are they and it must stop.

I provided my MPP with the RV Gazette letter written by Joe Martin last year (actually, I sent Joe a note earlier this evening explaining what I'm planning). It makes it clear that Elite WILL cover owners if they have the wrong license for the weight of their RV. Now, did the change that opinion?

There are a lot of exemptions for motor homes in the OHTA. They are exempt from hours driven limitations, weight scales, log books, and so on. Also, note that Farmers are exempt from all of these requirements regardless of vehicle weight - but not the air brake requirement. The air brake 2 day course is total overkill. A half day course would be adequate. We have auto slack adjusters, heaters, etc. We can't even legally touch our braking system. And why do we care how a Class A truck driver connects trailers - but yet the only course available takes 2 days and sweeps in the kitchen sink.

I'm hoping to get an answer soon as to a meeting.

If I decide to go with my Charter challenge, I will be looking for others to provide support. TT and 5er owners may be able to use the same grounds for a Charter challenge - others being allowed in to the Province to drive on our roads with the same level of license we have when we can't.

What has also annoyed me is the trailer brake issue. I was standing with a group of Americans at a park in the US. One said that Ontario was enforcing the toad brake requirement AT THE BORDER until it found that that the result was a reduction in visitors. They stopped. I was amazed at this.

If you are interested in trying to get an acceptable solution to this problem please let me know.

I got a very good reception from my MPP and he fully understood how absurd the situation is that I can use my license in another province to get a license that will let me do in Ontario what I can't do with the Ontario license.

By the way, I pointed out to them that few RV sales people have a Class D and a Z yet they demo MHs and let potential buyers test drive them without even asking if they have a DZ.

Don

[The Shadow]

Bump. I'd really like to hear from Ontario owners who may have a problem in this area.