The World of RV Wal-Mart Freeloading in B.C.

[Stan Birch]

Front page news in today's Globe and Mail: :-)

The world of the RV: A Wal-Mart atlas and freeloading in B.C.
By JONATHAN WOODWARD

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 Page A1

VANCOUVER - It's a sight that RV park owner Ted McAfee hates to see -- a cluster of about 20 RVs in the Wal-Mart parking lot in Prince George on a summer night, sitting under awnings on their deck chairs, swapping stories around an artificial fireplace burning on the pavement.

The next morning, he knows they'll pack up and leave to the Wal-Mart closest to the next stop on their trip -- a ritual for thousands of RV enthusiasts who, armed with a special Wal-Mart atlas with directions to every store in North America, can vacation anywhere without leaving the sight of the retail giant's familiar yellow face. Or -- to the chagrin of those like Mr. McAfee who make a living off the tourist trade -- paying a penny for the overnight say.

"Boondocking" -- RV slang for camping without facilities such as electricity and grey water disposal -- has set Prince George on edge. Staying overnight in retail parking lots is illegal in the city, but since a Wal-Mart was built in the town two years ago, the vacationers have been coming in droves, often ignoring signs telling them to stay away.

RV park owners, who for years counted on the flow of American tourists up the Alaska Highway, are losing thousands of dollars, said Mr. McAfee, who owns Blue Spruce RV Park on the outskirts of Prince George.

"Before Wal-Mart came, we were full every night," he said. Now, he fields calls from drivers looking to stay the night, but they never show up.

"You can drive down to Wal-Mart and you'll see the exact description of the RV they just gave you sitting there. They're on their way up, they see Wal-Mart, and it's like a snowball effect. Once one or two is parked there, another one will pull in, and another, and another."

Blue Spruce estimates it will take in $20,000 less this month compared to two years ago, before the Wal-Mart opened.

Mr. McAfee, who drives a logging truck in the off-season to pay his bills, said he understands people want the tourists to stay in town, but that money won't stay in the city.

Wal-Mart is trying to strike a balance between supporting the local tourist business and offering a safer space than the side of the road for drivers to sleep -- something that would never replace a campground, said spokesman Andrew Pelletier.

And Prince George Mayor Colin Kinsley said the city did all it could when it told Wal-Mart to put up signs in the lot. "I don't know if we've got the police resources to knock on their doors at three in the morning and send them on their way," he said.

But Chuck Woodbury, editor of RV enthusiast website rvtravel.com, said because the police don't enforce the law, and Wal-Mart doesn't care, most drivers don't believe the signs.

"They're paying a chunk of money to fill up their gas tanks and that Wal-Mart looks awfully appealing," he said. "Some of them will say, the worst comes to worst, they'll kick me out."

Mr. Woodbury's biggest seller at his website is his Wal-Mart locator, a book with directions to every Wal-Mart.

RV drivers are incredibly organized, he said, and if the city enforces the no-parking laws, Prince George can expect their wrath. The community cowed cities that originally banned them like Rapid City, S.D., and Cody, Wyo., he said.

"If word gets out in the RV community and they're hassled and they're being kicked out of the Wal-Mart . . . they'll send letters to local papers and send letters to the mayor, and people will say, 'I'm never going to that town again.' "

Doug Hawes-Davis, who directed This is Nowhere, a documentary on the Wal-Mart subculture of RV drivers, said thousands of people take their homes with them, visiting identical places every night in a bizarre homogenization of culture.

Many travellers carry with them the Wal-Mart atlas. One travelled to Mexico and stayed in a Wal-Mart in every small town. Another had a satellite-linked GPS system that had a program to tell him the location of every Wal-Mart in the United States.

"It's convenient, it's safe, you avoid culture shock," Mr. Hawes-Davis said. "The irony is that you avoid the things that you might state as your reason for going on vacation: to experience new places, meet new people, things like that.

"They talk about it as a community," he said, "But we found that they're so insulated that they really don't spend a lot of time in the parking lot talking to each other."

RV park owners need to get used to the new world of vacationers that just don't need their services, Mr. Woodbury said.

"You buy one of these things, and it's completely self-contained. They run on 12-volt power. They carry enough water to take a shower for five six mornings. They've got waste tanks, refrigerators. They have everything you need.

"You don't need to go into an RV park to hook up the power, use the swimming pool, when all you want to do is go in somewhere, get fairly level, go to sleep and get up and leave."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...eNews/TPStory/
LAC/20050719/BOONDOCKERS19/TPFront/TopStories

[Stan Birch]

Front page news in today's Globe and Mail: :-)

The world of the RV: A Wal-Mart atlas and freeloading in B.C.
By JONATHAN WOODWARD

Tuesday, July 19, 2005 Page A1

VANCOUVER - It's a sight that RV park owner Ted McAfee hates to see -- a cluster of about 20 RVs in the Wal-Mart parking lot in Prince George on a summer night, sitting under awnings on their deck chairs, swapping stories around an artificial fireplace burning on the pavement.

The next morning, he knows they'll pack up and leave to the Wal-Mart closest to the next stop on their trip -- a ritual for thousands of RV enthusiasts who, armed with a special Wal-Mart atlas with directions to every store in North America, can vacation anywhere without leaving the sight of the retail giant's familiar yellow face. Or -- to the chagrin of those like Mr. McAfee who make a living off the tourist trade -- paying a penny for the overnight say.

"Boondocking" -- RV slang for camping without facilities such as electricity and grey water disposal -- has set Prince George on edge. Staying overnight in retail parking lots is illegal in the city, but since a Wal-Mart was built in the town two years ago, the vacationers have been coming in droves, often ignoring signs telling them to stay away.

RV park owners, who for years counted on the flow of American tourists up the Alaska Highway, are losing thousands of dollars, said Mr. McAfee, who owns Blue Spruce RV Park on the outskirts of Prince George.

"Before Wal-Mart came, we were full every night," he said. Now, he fields calls from drivers looking to stay the night, but they never show up.

"You can drive down to Wal-Mart and you'll see the exact description of the RV they just gave you sitting there. They're on their way up, they see Wal-Mart, and it's like a snowball effect. Once one or two is parked there, another one will pull in, and another, and another."

Blue Spruce estimates it will take in $20,000 less this month compared to two years ago, before the Wal-Mart opened.

Mr. McAfee, who drives a logging truck in the off-season to pay his bills, said he understands people want the tourists to stay in town, but that money won't stay in the city.

Wal-Mart is trying to strike a balance between supporting the local tourist business and offering a safer space than the side of the road for drivers to sleep -- something that would never replace a campground, said spokesman Andrew Pelletier.

And Prince George Mayor Colin Kinsley said the city did all it could when it told Wal-Mart to put up signs in the lot. "I don't know if we've got the police resources to knock on their doors at three in the morning and send them on their way," he said.

But Chuck Woodbury, editor of RV enthusiast website rvtravel.com, said because the police don't enforce the law, and Wal-Mart doesn't care, most drivers don't believe the signs.

"They're paying a chunk of money to fill up their gas tanks and that Wal-Mart looks awfully appealing," he said. "Some of them will say, the worst comes to worst, they'll kick me out."

Mr. Woodbury's biggest seller at his website is his Wal-Mart locator, a book with directions to every Wal-Mart.

RV drivers are incredibly organized, he said, and if the city enforces the no-parking laws, Prince George can expect their wrath. The community cowed cities that originally banned them like Rapid City, S.D., and Cody, Wyo., he said.

"If word gets out in the RV community and they're hassled and they're being kicked out of the Wal-Mart . . . they'll send letters to local papers and send letters to the mayor, and people will say, 'I'm never going to that town again.' "

Doug Hawes-Davis, who directed This is Nowhere, a documentary on the Wal-Mart subculture of RV drivers, said thousands of people take their homes with them, visiting identical places every night in a bizarre homogenization of culture.

Many travellers carry with them the Wal-Mart atlas. One travelled to Mexico and stayed in a Wal-Mart in every small town. Another had a satellite-linked GPS system that had a program to tell him the location of every Wal-Mart in the United States.

"It's convenient, it's safe, you avoid culture shock," Mr. Hawes-Davis said. "The irony is that you avoid the things that you might state as your reason for going on vacation: to experience new places, meet new people, things like that.

"They talk about it as a community," he said, "But we found that they're so insulated that they really don't spend a lot of time in the parking lot talking to each other."

RV park owners need to get used to the new world of vacationers that just don't need their services, Mr. Woodbury said.

"You buy one of these things, and it's completely self-contained. They run on 12-volt power. They carry enough water to take a shower for five six mornings. They've got waste tanks, refrigerators. They have everything you need.

"You don't need to go into an RV park to hook up the power, use the swimming pool, when all you want to do is go in somewhere, get fairly level, go to sleep and get up and leave."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...eNews/TPStory/
LAC/20050719/BOONDOCKERS19/TPFront/TopStories

[bstark]

This topic has generated more discussion than any other topic on the "open roads" forum but this is the first time I've seen it associated with a Canadian Walmart. I guess it was just a matter of time. We have never used a Wal-Mart lot to overnight but if I was ever in a situation where unforseen circumstances resulted in my needing a place to sleep I wouldn't hesitate and I subscribe to those who would use their multiple clout by boycotting any town who forced Wal-Mart to police a "town" bylaw. RV resort owners must take risks like any other businees person and that is one of them. It's like a Tim Horton's franchise telling the town to enact a bylaw that there should be no parking allowed at the Country Style donut shop across the road. He has no more grounds for complaint than the small hardware store downtown who might object to Wal-Mart being there. I have noticed larger Casinos throughout the USA are offering free RV parking sites and, for the most part, are not policing how many nights stay. There are never any guarantees when you go into business that competition will remain "static". I have noticed a lot of parks have a No Late Check Ins policy so if they don't want to pay to have a staff member man the desk later in the evening then they should expect to see Wal-Mart lots with RV's in them.

[Stan Birch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bstark:
I subscribe to those who would use their multiple clout by boycotting any town who forced Wal-Mart to police a "town" bylaw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
We once stayed at a Florida Wal-Mart that didn't permit overnight RV parking. When we saw other RVs there, obviously settling in for the night, we checked with Customer Service:

"Nope . . we can't give your permission to overnight in our lot!"

"But . . . if you do spend the night here, we won't kick out either! And if anyone asks you if you have permission to stay here, tell them 'NO'".

On more than one occasion, we've received permission in Wal-Mart lots that were posted with "No Overnight Parking" Signs. After years of mall boondocking coast-to-coast, we've never encountered so much as a single Wal-Mart in all of Canada, that wouldn't allow us to overnight in their lot; and that includes Nova Scotia. :-)

......if it becomes a problem start returning the mdse you buy at wal-mart and tell them why....In Florida I asked the lot cop to help me get the mdse I bought back in the store....I stayed the nite and he had a "sip" about 2:30 with me...guy was real reasonable....geofkaye

[kcjones50]

___________________________________________
"The irony is that you avoid the things that you might state as your reason for going on vacation: to experience new places, meet new people, things like that.

_______________________________________


I think that the point that most people stopping at Wally World are just doing it for the night. Its used more for in transit then actually vacationing, not that it matters to RV parks losing the one nighters. It just comes down to why pay for services (electric, sewer,cable, water) that you don't need when all you want to do is stop, sleep and get on the way again. Maybe some people "vacation" there, I know I don't. When I picked up my Volvo 610 in May I "camped" at Flying J one night and Wal Mart another. Flying J or any other truck stop is no different its just that you don't have Campgrounds complaining that its unfair competition. Maybe the answer is for campgrounds to have VERY low rates for one night with no hookups. They can compete if they want to and actually promoted a low one night rate.

[Novi]

Kevin I couldn't agree more with your last statement. Lots of times when travelling I would prefer to stay in a campground, no hook-ups needed and would gladly pay a small fee just to be or feel safer than in a truck stop. But I'll be "darned" if I am going to pay $25-35 just to stay 8-10 hours. Some campgrounds have an "over flow" area but they still charge to much just to sit there one night. Therefore like many others I'll stay at Flying Js or Walmarts until they do.

[Gary RVRoamer]

It is tough for the owner of an existing park to compete for "no frills" business. They have already spent the money to build their expensive infrastructure (dump station, office/store, power grid, etc.), so adding a no-hook-up area doesn't relieve them of the big cost burden. They would still have to charge a substantial fee, maybe only $5 less than a water & electric site. That's not enough to be attractive, so most people would pay the extra anyway.

And there are two competing pressures: many Rvers are demanding full hook-up 50A sites while others have gone the no-frills route. And the no-frills choice is a popular one in an "enroute" place like Prince George, a small city where people are mostly just passing through on their way to other BC destinations or to Alaska via The Cassiar Highway.

But figuring out how to meet the customer's needs is part of doing business, so Mr McAfee is going to have to learn how to cope. I've stayed in his park and it is a nice enough place, but it is neither upscale enough for the big rig touring crowd nor cheap enough for the no-frills crowd. On the other hand, I think we paid only about $22 Canadian for a full hook-up site there in 2002, so it was already very reasonable. That was only about $15 US at the time.

[brad03ca]

Twenty two dollars for me is just about right. I enjoy the security in a park, and with full hook-ups..well.. thats a bonus. What I don't like is paying thirty-eight dollars for the same amenities in a "not" so nice park. Been there..done that!!

[Novi]

The rate mentioned above is certainly not excessive. The kind of situation I was refering to is in the off season, where a CG maybe able to attract some RVers he might not otherwise get. I have stayed at a KOA, once, off season, no pool, spa, no water, most everything closed up except the main office and store below where the owner lived electric hook up only and he was charging $38/night US. That certainly drives RVers to Walmarts. I had not thought of what a reasonalble price might be but $20 to feel safer and hopefully quieter would not be unreasonable at all for many of us. $1 would be too much for some but that is their choice.

[Stan Birch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Novi:
I had not thought of what a reasonable price might be but $20 to feel safer and hopefully quieter would not be unreasonable at all for many of us. $1 would be too much for some but that is their choice. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Everyone's experience differs. For at least some of us, the "feel safer" concept is hardly an issue.

The last RVing fatality in Ontario occurred a couple years ago in the Bruce Peninsula, when a campground owner settled a noisy campground dispute at 3 am by pulling a gun and blowing away the complainant.

Before anyone is deluded into thinking that campgrounds are in any way safer than Wal-Mart, do a Google search on "most dangerous parks", and you'll come up with websites like:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ipeclynes.html

where rangers patrol parks with assault rifes! When is the last time you witnessed Wal-Mart parking lots being patrolled with assault rifes?

As for "hopefully quieter": I can't think of anything that lulls me to sleep more effectively than the comforting sounds of city traffic; as opposed to the never ending raucous annoyance of typical campground boom boxes!

[DriVer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stan Birch:
When is the last time you witnessed Wal-Mart parking lots being patrolled with assault rifes? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Every day! Local Police Department.

[WRV of Tennessee]

The time has come for motels to get involved with this situation and start putting w/e or just e in the back of their parking lots for rvers who just need a level spot for the night.
I have seen a few and they only charged I believe around $10.
I believe it would be a great service to the RV community and some extra money for the motels.

[George Miklas]

At 11:00 PM, Wal-Mart's restroom is cleaner than any campground restroom at 11:00 PM. So if Mr. McAfee wants to start into the business of providing overnight facilities, he needs to have an all-night attendant to clean his restrooms. Afterall, RVers do want value for the money that they pay. Right?



George