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Old 02-17-2010, 07:27 PM   #15
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That's good information and meshes with what I've learned. A couple variation on this information that I learned from the Powerglide chassis engineer at Tiffin is that the system doesn't test for DEF level in the tank. It actually tests for flow and density. You can't fill the tank with water or dilute the DEF or the system will catch you. DEF is basically 37.5% ammonia and the rest water. The coolant loop will keep it from freezing but only once things warm up. On a cold winter start that isn't going to happen.

If you start up a system with no flow or the wrong density (out of DEF, it's too diluted, or it's frozen) the system will let you run a given amount of time (he didn't know exactly how many minutes that was) before the engine derates and is torque limited. That supposedly gives the engine enough time to warm the DEF and restore flow or give you enough time to go get some DEF and fill your empty tank.

Once everything is running, if you run out of DEF or something else happens you won't derate unless you shut it off. So, if you ever run out, don't shut it off until you know you can find some more DEF.

One other consideration is that Cummins is dropping the ISM. Instead of making it EPA-2010 compliant they are making a new ISX-11, which is a smaller 11 liter version of the big 15 liter ISX used in heavy trucks.

What isn't clear is what emissions technology will be used on the ISX-11. The larger ISX doesn't get SCR or need any urea. Instead it gets more extensive exhaust gas recirculation. So, I'm wondering if the new ISX-11 gets EGR or SCR technology. I'd love to see EGR - which would make me love the Spartan K2 chassis even more.

Navistar is using EGR. The Tiffin Breeze diesel pusher prototypes (28' and 32') use the MaxForce V8 and EGR technology. The new EGR systems generate more heat so cooling systems need to be expanded but other than that it's nice because it eliminates the hassle of finding and adding urea as well as the potential freeze up derates in my neck of the woods.
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Old 02-26-2010, 10:38 PM   #16
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Cost adder for Cummins SCR on Tiffin Allegro Bus

A few weeks ago, I was given a price sheet on a 2010 Tiffin Allegro Bus 43 QGP. My wife and I thought it over, decided to go ahead with a formal quote. We visited Red Bay a few months ago and fell in love with the company, the people and their products--particularly the Bus. I was informed today in a written quote by the dealer, Bankston Motor Homes, Huntsville, AL, that the Cummins SCR system has added $17,800 to the price of the coach. I'm sitting here looking at the quote sheet with that line added to it and admiring how incomprehensively wonderful that system must be to cost more than the price of TWO Onan 10KW diesel generators. How can this possibly be? What could be in a tank, pump, injector and a few sensors that could crank up the price of the 450HP Cummins by SEVENTEEN THOUSAND, EIGHT HUNDRED DOLLARS? What in the world does the engine cost?

This is a well known and respected Tiffin dealer with several stores; I have no reason to doubt their veracity. But I'm sure not going to buy a coach or engine with a new gadget costing that much money. I can't imagine what the cost to repair it would be after it was out of warranty. I'll pick up a 2009 with the less-wonderful engine and stick it out until Cummins comes up with another idea. This is a huge disappointment.
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Old 02-27-2010, 06:42 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Higherground View Post
A few weeks ago, I was given a price sheet on a 2010 Tiffin Allegro Bus 43 QGP. My wife and I thought it over, decided to go ahead with a formal quote. We visited Red Bay a few months ago and fell in love with the company, the people and their products--particularly the Bus. I was informed today in a written quote by the dealer, Bankston Motor Homes, Huntsville, AL, that the Cummins SCR system has added $17,800 to the price of the coach. I'm sitting here looking at the quote sheet with that line added to it and admiring how incomprehensively wonderful that system must be to cost more than the price of TWO Onan 10KW diesel generators. How can this possibly be? What could be in a tank, pump, injector and a few sensors that could crank up the price of the 450HP Cummins by SEVENTEEN THOUSAND, EIGHT HUNDRED DOLLARS? What in the world does the engine cost?

This is a well known and respected Tiffin dealer with several stores; I have no reason to doubt their veracity. But I'm sure not going to buy a coach or engine with a new gadget costing that much money. I can't imagine what the cost to repair it would be after it was out of warranty. I'll pick up a 2009 with the less-wonderful engine and stick it out until Cummins comes up with another idea. This is a huge disappointment.
Not to change the thread but this got my attention:
Wow Higherground, that is a deal killer. The bus you looked at I assume, was built and delivered to the dealer before the price increase. I would go to another dealer, there is something very wrong for a dealer to add $17,800 after the coach was built and delivered to them. The price increase would be on all new deliverys from the factory, not after the dealer has taken delivery on the agreed unit cost.
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Old 02-27-2010, 06:56 AM   #18
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The only thing I could speculate is that the pricing was based on the use of a 2009 engine. Many of these engines were purchased prior to the January 1, 2010 emissions implementation date for use in the build of 2010 trucks, RV chassis, etc. If the engine was built before January 1, 2010, it could be used after that date.

If they've run out of 2009 engines between the time of your initial and latest inquiry and now must use a 2010 engine, the adder could indeed be valid.

I'm not saying you should buy the coach - just that the dealer or Tiffin isn't necessarily trying to pull a fast one on you.

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Old 02-27-2010, 07:24 AM   #19
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There is a post by Cruzer over on the Tiffin Members' Forum that confirms the $17k+ increase for the 2010 EPA engine. The other killer is the delivery of a new Allegro Bus is now out to 12 weeks (up from 8 weeks) because suppliers can't ramp up on the new engines and other components fast enough to meet demand. Tiffin pre-bought enough engines to meet their projected sales for 2010, but slaes are better than expected (the Allegro Bus has replaced the Phaeton as the #1 selling motorhome), so they don't have any more pre-2010 EPA engines on hand. If you're looking for an Allegro Bus and you find a 2010 you like on the lot (I don't think there are many), buy it.
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Old 02-27-2010, 07:33 AM   #20
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I agree with Rusty. The deadline for Allegro Bus orders with the "old" (pre-EPA2010) engines was around the middle of September for any Powerglide chassis and the few remaining Spartan and Freightliner chassis were snapped up mid January. Any orders placed since then will be at the new price. The new price list is out. You can view a copy of it at RVcruzer.com - Tiffin Motorhome Price Lists. It is indeed a $17,500 price hike. However, this is passed through by the chassis manufacturer. It's not a Tiffin price hike, so you'll see the same price hike on other brands. The chassis manufacturer has to buy the new engines from Cummins, who of course charges more. Then they have to add all of the SCR gear and get the ECM programmed to handle it, plus it has to be certified and approved by the Feds. There's a lot of engineering and compliance costs factored into it as well so it's not like they can just hang an extra muffler/SCR combiner on it and get away with it.

It's similar to the EPA-2007 engine phase-in whereby everything had to have a DPF added to it. The upcharge was around $10,000 at that time. Plus, all these figures are at list price so with your discount it's more like $13,000. It's still a big pill to have to swallow but I wouldn't blame your dealer, Tiffin, or the chassis manufacturer. It's all being mandated by the feds and the cost just gets passed on to the end user, unfortunately.

Most RV manufacturers tried to get enough engines to hold them until the May launch of the 2011 models. But, being a slow economy, they were conservative with ordering too many engines that they may not be able to use. Tiffin in particular has had an unusually good year and exceeded their projections. The Allegro Bus is now the number one selling diesel pusher in 2009. Previously the Phaeton held that honor for the last 3 years. But, the unexpected increase in demand for the Bus meant that they ran out of the old engines earlier so they couldn't make it to the May rollout of 2011s. The Phaeton is now #2 in sales for 2009 so they have plenty of engines left for the Phaeton. Both the Phaeton and Allegro Red can continue to enjoy the lower pricing and pre-EPA2010 engines for a few more months. By that time every manufacturer will be using the new engines and the prices will all raise.
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Old 02-27-2010, 08:01 AM   #21
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$17,500 for pollution control? Where's the 30,000 LB UFO?
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Old 02-27-2010, 12:03 PM   #22
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Newmar should have enough pre-2010 engines reserved via Spartan and Freightliner to get through the 2011 model year for Ventana, Dutch Star and Mountain Air. Once Newmar runs out of Spartan chassis with the pre-2010 engines, the Brands mentioned will be built only on Freightliner chassis with the pre-2010 engines.
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Old 02-27-2010, 01:55 PM   #23
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Folks, I truly appreciate your input on this. I'm still using my stun-gun to keep my heart going. To answer a few of your notes:
Del & Lori, the unit is not on the lot, it would be 12 weeks out for delivery, so it would be a new model engine.
Paz, thanks for the prompt, and Cruzer, thanks for the background information on this. The confirmation is really appreciated.
Does anyone have any experience with actually pulling up to a diesel pump and pumping DEF? We're still traveling with an '07 Sierra 2500HD and 39 ft fiver and I don't recall seeing a DEF pump at any truck stop.
I spent half the night last night getting up on this new requirement. I'm an ME and design stuff for the ISS, space flight and such, and I try to keep up with the latest technologies, but this one blew right on by me. (The EPA hasn't worried about emissions on rockets--we just let 'er blow.) With your responses, I've resolved myself to start pouring DEF juice into a cotton-picking Allegro Bus. Bob Tiffin and his folks have built it too darn nice not to. Thanks everyone!
--Rick
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Old 02-27-2010, 02:22 PM   #24
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Does anyone have any experience with actually pulling up to a diesel pump and pumping DEF?
I don't think you'll see any DEF pumps as it's not used in large quantities.

It will be in 1 and 2.5 gallon bottles.

More info here.
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Old 02-28-2010, 09:13 AM   #25
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Supposedly truck stops and fleet garages will have DEF pumps. While you only use 2 gallons of DEF per 100 gals of diesel, the onboard tank holds more (10-15 gallons?), so refilling it is similar to filling a car gas tank. If you top off the DEF every time you buy fuel, then a 1-2 gallon jug is reasonable. But if you wait until the DEF tank is low to refill it, then a pump makes more sense than pouring in a dozen jugs of DEF.
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Old 02-28-2010, 12:16 PM   #26
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DEF

Consumer Reports Cars Blog: Mercedes-Benz GL320 BlueTec--Feeling a bit AdBlue over spending a lot of green

Looks to me like another goverment screwup.
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Old 02-28-2010, 04:10 PM   #27
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Just saw the DEF jugs advertised at a Flying J in NC last week . 2 1/2 gal..
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Old 02-28-2010, 04:32 PM   #28
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Higherground....Like you we were shopping for a Bus, but did not pull the trigger fast enough to get a 09 spec motor. Since I have no desire for a 2010 motor, we are in a holding pattern now while we slowly shop for a clean lightly used 2008 or 2009. Good luck with your shopping.
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