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Old 02-28-2010, 06:51 PM   #29
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Interesting info on the DEF, especially for the Mercedes info. I am sure DEF is DEF. Must be mixed with gold based on the Mercedes info above. Cummins stated that it will cost about the same as diesel fuel.

Hopefully we're trecking to FL soon. I will try to keep tabs on the availability of DEF (we mostly frequent Flying J's) and report back on availability and price.
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Old 02-28-2010, 07:10 PM   #30
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2010 is here so what about the 2011 6.7 cummins in the ram trucks.
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Old 02-28-2010, 07:15 PM   #31
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No DEF in the Dodge Cummins pickups. The 6.7L Cummins ISB has been 2010 EPA compliant since its introduction in 2007.

DEF is used in the Dodge Cummins chassis cabs since they have a different duty cycle (extended idling in ambulance and wrecker service).

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Old 02-28-2010, 07:18 PM   #32
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So 2010 lasts for how long? This is what I was wondering. thanks
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Old 02-28-2010, 07:24 PM   #33
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Until the next round of tighter emissions regs takes effect. IIRC, there's another round in 2013, but my memory isn't what it used to be.

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Old 03-01-2010, 06:26 AM   #34
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So 2010 lasts for how long? This is what I was wondering. thanks
2010 only lasts 12 months but the 2010 EPA diesel regs will last until somebody in the EPA decides the pollution restrictions need to be even more stringent. That could be next year, or it could be 5 years.

If you buy a motorhome with an engine that meets the 2010 EPA diesel regs, for you, 2010 will last as long as you own that motorhome.
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Old 03-01-2010, 08:09 AM   #35
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..........
If you buy a motorhome with an engine that meets the 2010 EPA diesel regs, for you, 2010 will last as long as you own that motorhome.
We can hope so, but there's no guarantees. California is now banning construction equipment with older technology emissions. I don't recall what the tier level is that they are cutting off at, but many owners of equipment are being forced to unload it and replace with newer technology. So, normally older technology is grandfathered in, but not in this case.

If the EPA decides that there's too much old stuff out there they may wind up going the same way. We can hope it doesn't happen because of the huge financial burden placed on the end users but the EPA is narrow minded and all the really care about is their emissions numbers.

As to the size of the urea tanks - 18 wheelers may have larger tanks but I don't forsee 15 gallon tanks in RVs. Folloiwing are two shots of the Powerglide EPA-2010 chassis. The first shows the SCR unit, which is located directly beneath the DPF. The second shows the urea tank, which I'd say is no more than 10 gallons, if that.




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Old 03-01-2010, 08:37 AM   #36
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Folks, I truly appreciate your input on this. I'm still using my stun-gun to keep my heart going. To answer a few of your notes:
Del & Lori, the unit is not on the lot, it would be 12 weeks out for delivery, so it would be a new model engine.
Paz, thanks for the prompt, and Cruzer, thanks for the background information on this. The confirmation is really appreciated.
Does anyone have any experience with actually pulling up to a diesel pump and pumping DEF? We're still traveling with an '07 Sierra 2500HD and 39 ft fiver and I don't recall seeing a DEF pump at any truck stop.
I spent half the night last night getting up on this new requirement. I'm an ME and design stuff for the ISS, space flight and such, and I try to keep up with the latest technologies, but this one blew right on by me. (The EPA hasn't worried about emissions on rockets--we just let 'er blow.) With your responses, I've resolved myself to start pouring DEF juice into a cotton-picking Allegro Bus. Bob Tiffin and his folks have built it too darn nice not to. Thanks everyone!
--Rick

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Old 03-01-2010, 10:37 AM   #37
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More info on the Cummins SCR

Hardy1000, thanks for the encouragement.

Cruzer, I appreciate the photo. Now that I see it, I am more perplexed than ever how the system can drive up the coach price by $17,800. It still can't be more than the converter, a tank, pump, injector (DEF dosing valve), flow sensor, perhaps a computer block and interface. The SCR converter is as Cruzer shows in the photos and also in this illustration from Cummins at
http://www.everytime.cummins.com/ass..._QA_Mar_09.pdf
The converter does not use precious metals such as rhodium or platinum as do other catalytic systems. According to the Cummins document, page 6 says it uses copper zeolite . The latter is made by the chemical company BASF.
I haven't found final EPA test results on the copper zeolite catalyst, but EPA contends that it can produce dioxins under certain conditions. Dioxins are known carcinogens. Cummins is confident their system does not produce dioxins, the EPA has its doubts. Time will tell whether this system is the answer to NOx emissions or if it causes more problems than it solves. So far, it seems to be solving.
But, again, without beating this to death, it is hard to imagine this system adding more than $4K to the price of the engine. I go back to my Onan analogy: How can the Cummins Selective Catalytic Reduction system possibly add more to the coach retail price than the retail price of TWO Onan 10K generators? Consider that each generator has a complete diesel engine, generator, voltage controller, muffler, case, etc.
Has anyone heard if Onan will have to add one of these to its own diesel engine?
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Old 03-02-2010, 03:28 PM   #38
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A recording of the webinar I attended is now on Freightliner's website here: FCCC Motorhome Chassis

Note the 2010 EPA Diesel Engine button on the lower left of the website. This will launch the pre-recorded webinar. Takes about 60 min to listen to the whole thing.
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Old 03-02-2010, 05:55 PM   #39
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Cruezer's photo's are excellent, thanks. The top photo tells me the maintenance advantage of having a side radiator seems to have gone away.
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Old 03-05-2010, 11:41 PM   #40
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Cruzer, jump in here if I'm wrong, but Gary the radiator is still on the driver side, so these new EPA additions shouldn't interfere.
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Old 03-06-2010, 07:48 AM   #41
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Yes, the radiator hasn't moved, it's still on the Driver's Side. The SCR is basically stacked vertically with the DPF but that previously vacant space really wasn't accessible anyway. The side radiator still affords you easy access to the rear of the engine (well, front actually, seeing as how it's pointed backwards ) for access to the belts and other accessory items.

The biggest impact is on the basement compartments. The poly DEF storage tank requires a new compartment. This means that batteries, solenoids, or whatever else the coach previously had in that location now has to take up space someplace else. It will need to be in a dedicated compartment because the DEF vapors will eat steel.
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