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Old 02-17-2010, 03:11 PM   #1
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2010 EPA Diesel Engines

I attended a webinar hosted by Cummins and Freightliner yesterday regarding highlights of the 2010 EPA Diesel Engines by Cummins. I thought I would share here, as I'm sure it's a topic of interest to irv2'ers.

The diesel engine manufacturers have resorted to 2 systems to comply with the 2010 EPA diesel requirements: Exhaust Gas Recirculation (used by Navistar) or Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) used by Cummins.



This webinar only covered the Cummins approach.

Here are some highlights.

- Uses the same 2007-2009 Cummins diesel engines as prior.
- Adds on a 2ndary exhaust component behind the Diesel Particulate Filter (DPF), called an SCR (see above).
- The SCR injects a solution of 30% Urea and Water into the exhaust stream, creating ammonia.
- The ammonia minimizes the NOx to the 2010 standards (I don't have the levels at hand).
- This system minimizes the number of regenerations of the DPF the unit has to do, but the DPF still regenerates at highway speeds when needed.

- The coach builder adds a tank to hold this fluid, called Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF).
- The DEF tank holds about 10-13 gallons of this fluid.
- The DEF (fluid) is safe to handle, non-toxic, etc (but I still wouldn't drink it)
- The fluid will be readily availabe at truck stops (right at the pumps for some) or in containers at parts stores, etc.
- The expected price for this DEF per gallon is supposed to be about the same as a gallon of diesel fuel.
- The system uses about 2 gallons of DEF per 100 gallons of diesel (2%).
- This DEF fluid freezes at about 10-15d Farenheit. No harm comes to the system if it does freeze.
- The DEF system circulates engine coolant into the pump/tank (does not mix, of course) to defrost the fluid if it freezes, and to keep it warm.
- The coach will start even with the DEF sytem frozen, and you can drive right away.
- The system will tell you thru both a gauge and a warning light when you are running low on DEF fluid, with 350-700 mi range remaining in the DEF.
- The DEF tank will be mounted immediately rear of the curbside duals.
- The engine WILL continue to run if you drain the DEF tank while drving, and will not shut down or derate.
- IF you start the engine with an empty DEF tank, the engine will run but derate as it does for other diagnostic issues, restricting engine speed, power, etc. until DEF (fluid) is added again to the tank.
-IF you run with an empty DEF tank, no harm will occur to the engine or exhaust system, but it will not meet the 2010 EPA requirements.

- Cummins claims that fuel mileage will improve by 3-5% in the 2010 engines, and they are slightly upgraded for both horsepower and torque (I'm not going to quote any numbers, as I am doing this from memory and don't want to give the wrong #'s).

So here's the bottom line for Cummins equipped chassis:

You now need to add this new liquid probably 1X for every 4 or so fillups. The fluid costs about the same as diesel fuel. So any mileage improvements are washed by the cost of adding the DEF fluid.

Cummins and Freighliner provided this webinar to dealers and other interested parties who wanted to be able to explain to customers how the new 2010 engines operate. As of now, I do not know of this presentation posted anywhere on the web.

I am writing this from memory, so some of my information may be slightly off, but this is generally how Cummins / Freightliner are approaching the 2010 EPA diesel standars.

Again, I understand Navistar has taken a different approach to the new standard which does not utilize DEF (fluid). I don't have any info on this one.

Their presentation was a good overview of how the 2010 EPA diesel engines would operate in the Cummins/Freightlier environment, and what we as diesel jockeys would have to deal with. Hopefully I got most of it right (disclaimer -- if I didn't, it's close).
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Old 02-17-2010, 03:33 PM   #2
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Thanks Don for taking the time to share what you learned. I know that the new engines are good but I am happy that I have an 06 ISL 400 in my 07 chassis that was made prior to the new emmission system. I like the simplicity.
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:08 PM   #3
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Here's a link to Cummin's website which has good pictures of the DPF and the SCR .

Cummins Every Time - Cummins Technology - 2010 On-Highway - Cummins Aftertreatment System
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:11 PM   #4
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The ISB Cummins engine (6.7liter) already meets the new regulations without any urea or amonia injection. So far it is the only diesel to meet the newer standards without the use of DEF fluid.
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:03 PM   #5
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The ISB Cummins engine (6.7liter) already meets the new regulations without any urea or amonia injection. So far it is the only diesel to meet the newer standards without the use of DEF fluid.
Where did you find this information. I had not seen any reference to this anywhere.

- The DEF tank holds about 10-13 gallons of this fluid. Good to hear this, they had been discussing 5 gallon tanks.
- The fluid will be readily availabe at truck stops (right at the pumps for some) or in containers at parts stores, etc Sometime in the future, of course as all stations have to upgrade their services, install new holding tanks ect.
- The expected price for this DEF per gallon is supposed to be about the same as a gallon of diesel fuel. Again, sometime in the future, but right now it is running approx $10.00 per gallon.
- This DEF fluid freezes at about 10-15d Farenheit. No harm comes to the system if it does freeze.
- The DEF system circulates engine coolant into the pump/tank (does not mix, of course) to defrost the fluid if it freezes, and to keep it warm.
- The coach will start even with the DEF sytem frozen, and you can drive right away.
At reduced power if it is frozen as the system de-rates if not able to mix the 2% into the fuel.
- The engine WILL continue to run if you drain the DEF tank while drving, and will not shut down or derate This is a new and welcome addition.

JMHO of course
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:57 PM   #6
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2010 Dodge Ram HD - Cummins Diesel Engine - Diesel Power Magazine

Possibly only in truck applications?
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:16 PM   #7
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The 6.7L Cummins used in the Dodge Ram Heavy Duty pickups, as has been reported previously, does NOT require DEF (urea). It has met 2010 EPA emissions regulations since its 2007 introduction.

The Dodge Ram chassis cabs DO use DEF (urea) because of a different duty cycle (extended idling) and the fact that the majority of chassis cab target users run diesel fleets and will be using DEF in other vehicles.

The 8.3L and larger Cummins DO use DEF in a selective catalytic reduction (SCR) exhaust post-treatment process.

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Old 02-17-2010, 06:24 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by womps View Post
The ISB Cummins engine (6.7liter) already meets the new regulations without any urea or amonia injection. So far it is the only diesel to meet the newer standards without the use of DEF fluid.
I think there is a GVWR limit on these engines, with anything above 8500 GVWR required to meet the 2010 EPA standard, which means the 6.7L Cummins engine used in motorhomes must use the DEF system.

I know that Cummins specifically talked about the 6.7L engine for motorhome applications requiring the DEF sytem.

The Dodge Truck engines may be exempt.
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:31 PM   #9
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Dodge Ram HD pickups have GVWRs well over 8,500 lbs. The 3500 dually crew cab long bed 4x4 with Cummins 6.7L diesel and either manual or automatic transmission has a 12,200 lb GVWR. It does NOT require DEF (urea).

From Motor Trend's article naming the 2010 Dodge Heavy Duty pickups as its Truck of the Year:

Quote:
Within the next few months, the heavy-duty category will heat up, as all three manufacturers have all-new offerings coming. The Ram Heavy Duty is the first to market, and it's already ahead of the game. When Ford and GM's all-new heavy-dutys come out, both new diesel engines are going to require urea injection to meet emissions requirements that take effect January 2010. The Ram Heavy Duty's Cummins inline-six turbodiesel, which puts out an impressive 350 horsepower and 650 pound-feet of torque, met those requirements -- without urea -- over a year ago.



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Old 02-17-2010, 06:43 PM   #10
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HERE it is straight from Cummins:

Quote:
This episode highlights the great features and outstanding benefits of the Cummins 6.7L Turbo Diesel, as well as the 2010-compliant emissions technology that it has used since 2007. As you know, some diesel-powered pickup truck owners will have to regularly fill a new tank on their truck with Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) in order to meet the new emissions regulations. RAM Heavy Duty pickup truck owners with a Cummins 6.7L Turbo Diesel won’t need to, because it already meets the new standards – and has since 2007!
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:53 PM   #11
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Thank you for the excellent write up. I had a lot of questions on the system and you answered most of them.

If you get a chance, look for a 2007 Ford diesel pickup and smell the exhaust, never run it in an enclosed area.

Our 2008 Fire Engines have averaged 32 +/- hours before having to regenerate, this takes at least 45 minutes and they are out of service for that time.

We can all thank the Government Agencies who had input to this mess and look forward to more worthless systems in the near future.
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:54 PM   #12
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Here's an article that states that Dodge will use the DEF on it's 3500/4500/5500 Commercial chassis cabs.


Chrysler Diesel Exhaust Fluid System Previews NOx Reduction Solutions for 2010 - PickupTrucks.com News

Rusty, I'm not debating whether Dodge will use DEF in their pickups, I am relating what Cummins and Freightliner stated regarding the use of DEF in the Cummins 6.7L engines for motorhome applications.
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:58 PM   #13
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I'm responding to post #5. I'll say it one more time - the pickup does NOT use DEF, while the chassis cab DOES use DEF because it's designed for a different duty cycle, that being extended idling associated with ambulance, wrecker, etc. applications. I'm not debating that the 6.7L in motorhome applications will require DEF - it will.

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Old 02-17-2010, 07:08 PM   #14
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Rusty, thanks. I misunderstood your point. Thanks for your clarification.
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