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Old 05-18-2012, 04:07 AM   #99
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Same on this end... father spent 21 years in the service, I was denied due to medical.
That said that does not mean that hole theory is not missing the electron... lol
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Old 05-18-2012, 10:14 AM   #100
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Was in the hardware shopping for a new 7" wheel for wife's mobility scooter.... (She had a flat, bearing that is).

Just for the heck of it I took a look at dryer cords.. Found both 3-wire that looked a lot like it MIGHT plug into a tt-30 (But might not differnet pin spacing/size) I"m fairly shure you could not plug a trailer into the matching outlet, Found some that were a bit different than a TT-30 but I think you could plug into the matching outlet.

and a bunch of 4-wire models as well.

Just for refrerence.

ACE hardware,, Sears would be a good place to look for this kind of cord too.

I post this to verify what I and others have posted above about the fact there are dryer outlets that look a lot like a TT-30,,, but are not.
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Old 05-18-2012, 12:21 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by milasman
JimM68.....I hope you are not referring to me. I never said I was a God. I graduated high school, Marine Corps boot camp Paris Island, and College. I think quite an insult to say anything about just a "high school graduate" like they are stupid or something.
I am most cedrtainly not referring to you, or any other individual here. I haven't worn your shoes, i don't know you.

I am referring to any who's contribution is "that's too hard/dangerous/scary, you better call the guy." This is IRV2. We do NOT call the guy.
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Old 05-18-2012, 12:28 PM   #102
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To answer the nuetral/ground question without posting a link...

Neutral and ground are indeed the same. As in, there should never ever be any voltage measured from neutral to ground.

According to the national electrical code, nuetral and ground must be connected together at the main service entrace to a structure.... And cannot be connected together anywhere else.

There are some safety issues here that make little sense to me, but it is the rule. In a subpanel, such as if you run a separate feed to a second breaker box in your garage, the ground and nuetral cannot be tied together. But in the main feed to a structure they must be.

We'll let someone else argue if a motorhome plugged into campground shore power is a structure or a subpanel.
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Old 05-18-2012, 02:48 PM   #103
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I have a basic electricity question. In my power panel, I have the black wires going into the breaker switches, and the white AND copper wires going to the aluminum ground bar. Where is the neutral? Better yet, What is the difference between a Ground and a Neutral? Is there a voltage or some kind of power potential difference between the two?
This is probably wrong depending on how you "look at it".

It will likely trip the GC GFI.

Aluminum or plated steel, if AL you will need to grease the connections with grease for that funtion.

Yes, as others have stated Ground and Neutral will MEASURE the same, but they ARE NOT the same.

At the main entrance panel where the meter is located the Neutral is bonded to the safety ground, and this is bonded to a water pipe if it is conductive and at least 20 ft long in the dirt, or a ground rod or whatever the local code requires.

This ground sometimes is called "meter ground"

The normal current path is via the hot (usually black) and the Neutral/return (usually white) wires.

This goes all the way back the the entrance point where the meter lives.

2 currents flow through the safety ground or green wire, ground faults, say an internal short between the heater in an ice maker and the metal housing, and with recent electronics "leakage current", this is where current is generated via switching transformers and other magic that show up on the metal parts as leakage, it is shunted to ground and made harmless via the green safety ground wire.

If the white as green are connected together in a sub panel it is usually a lazy contractor, most sub panels have seperate busses for each and come with a cross bar that needs to be left in place is used as main, removed for sub.

Some contractors forget to remove the bar, others just leave in place and connect green, bare and white to all of them.

It usually may not be a concern except GFI will not work correctly and if you get poor connections you are not sure where the energy goes.

That can be argued until the cows decide to stay away, but code is just that, code.

It is easy fix, Disconnect shore power and insure no source of energy in the panel, check for 2 bars.

ONE needs to be on insulators, it can NOT touch the metal of the box electrically, move all white wires to that one one, all bare and green to the other, verify with a meter that the green side in the panel is the green pin on the cord, same for the white and black, and TEST EACH outlet before powering up.

If you do not have 2 seperate bars, or if one is not insulated from the panel they can be purchased at the hardware store in the electrical department.

Make sure the other end is correct, best by removing each outlet and inspecting them.

If there is one mistake there may be more, assume the last guy was not paying attention, never trust their work or opinion, take the time to inspect everything!
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:19 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimM68 View Post

Neutral and ground are indeed the same. As in, there should never ever be any voltage measured from neutral to ground.
A little picky, but they are not quite the same. While the only time there should be current on a ground wire is during a fault, if you have neutral current (and in most situations you do) there must be a voltage drop across the neutral wire (Ohm's law). While the service distribution panel ground/neutral tie will be at the same voltage, the RV (or load) end will not.

This is why the NEC requires that there can only be one bond between the neutral & ground (at the service entrance). If you tie them at the RV, the neutral current will be split between the neutral & ground wiring, presenting a shock hazard by raising the ground voltage above 0V. One interesting example of the result of a second bond between neutral & ground (among many other problems) - receiving a shock when connecting your water hose to the campground supply.
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Old 05-22-2012, 08:33 PM   #105
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I have not found any manufactured adapters, as I thought I might have.
You could however, build your own, going from the 220v dryer socket, using a 30a dryer plug to a 50A rv socket, and using the ground, or green, or bare copper, as the neutral and ground, then just use a standard RV 50a to 30a dogbone. that would make due for the temporary use indicated.
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:05 PM   #106
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The ground neutral thing is far from cut n dried.....
The nec rules even, are kinda weird and conteadictory....

At the entrance (service panel) to a structure, the ground and the nuetral must be connected together.

At a subpanel, they cannot be connected together.

A detached garage with it's own panel is a subpanel.... Even though it is a separate structure.

But my inground pool, which does have it's own 50 amp subpanel but is not a separate structure, must be grounded with a ground rod, and must have the nuetral and ground bonded together.

I actually argued with the inspector over this, stating that nec specified the ground and nuetral cannot be bonded together. He refused to sign off untill i put the bonding strap back on...

So its all kinda fuzzy....
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:13 PM   #107
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The ground neutral thing is far from cut n dried.....
The nec rules even, are kinda weird and conteadictory....

At the entrance (service panel) to a structure, the ground and the nuetral must be connected together.

At a subpanel, they cannot be connected together.

A detached garage with it's own panel is a subpanel.... Even though it is a separate structure.

But my inground pool, which does have it's own 50 amp subpanel but is not a separate structure, must be grounded with a ground rod, and must have the nuetral and ground bonded together.

I actually argued with the inspector over this, stating that nec specified the ground and nuetral cannot be bonded together. He refused to sign off untill i put the bonding strap back on...

So its all kinda fuzzy....
Where does your 50 amp tap off of? As far as I know, anything from the panel side on should be unbonded. Anything from the transformer side should be. Might be different with pools and spas though due to needing some form of protection.. have to look that up.
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Old 05-23-2012, 01:17 PM   #108
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To protect from a floating ground..

Quote:
680.26 Bonding.
(A) Performance. Bonding as required by this section is intended to help reduce or eliminate voltage gradients in the pool area by forming a common bonding grid. Bonding is not required to provide a low-impedance ground-fault current path.
FPN: The bonding requirements contained in this section are not intended to require an 8 AWG copper conductor to be bonded to a panelboard, service equipment or electrode.
(B) Bonded Parts. The following parts of a pool, outdoor spa or hot tub shall be bonded to a common bonding grid of the type specified in 680.26(C).
(1) Metallic Parts of Structure. All metallic parts of the water structure, including the reinforcing metal of the pool shell, coping stones, and deck, shall be bonded to a common bonding grid [680.26(C)]. Steel tie-wires made up tight are suitable for bonding reinforcing steel together. Figure 680-19 un680-19 680-26B1 01.cdr
(2) Underwater Lighting. Metal forming shell used to contain underwater pool, outdoor spa, and hot tub luminaires and speakers.
(3) Metal Fittings. Metal fittings within or attached to the pool, outdoor spa or hot tub structure, such as ladders and handrails.
(4) Electrical Equipment. Metal parts of electric equipment associated with the pool, outdoor spa and hot tub water circulating system, such as water heaters and pump motors.
Where a double-insulated water-pump motor is installed, a solid 8 AWG copper conductor shall be provided from the bonding grid to an accessible point in the motor vicinity.
(5) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal piping, fixed metal parts, observation stands, towers, platforms, or diving structures, as well as metallic surfaces of electrical equipment located within 5 ft horizontally of the inside walls of the pool, outdoor spa or hot tub, and within 12 ft above the maximum water level.
Author's Comment: Bonding is required for diving structures, sliding glass door frames, windows, fences, screen enclosures, heater equipment, and the metal cases of electrical equipment, such as the blower, chlorinator, etc. located within 5 ft of the water’s edge.
(C) Common Bonding Grid. The metallic parts of a pool, outdoor spa or hot tub specified in 680.26(B) shall be electrically bonded to a common bonding grid by a solid conductor not smaller than 8 AWG. The termination of the bonding conductor shall be made by exothermic welding, or clamps labeled (listed) as being suitable for the purpose. The common bonding grid can consist of any of the following: Figure 680-20 un680-20 680-26C.cdr
(1) The structural reinforcing steel of the concrete pool, outdoor spa or hot tub that is secured by steel tie-wires.
(2) The wall of a bolted or welded metal pool.
(3) A solid copper conductor, insulated, covered or bare, not smaller than 8 AWG
Article 680 - Swimming Pool Installations
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Old 05-23-2012, 03:45 PM   #109
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100+ posts (and still climbing) in response to the OP's question...

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I'm sure this has been covered,, but I couldn't find a thread here.. So if you can point me in the right direction,, or answer my question, thankyou... I need to plug my 30A plug into a dryer (220V) outlet when we visit the DW Mom's house... It never triped a breaker plugging in to a regular 20A outlet,, but running the AC out west,, the plugs of my heavier extension cord were melting ... The cord never got hot... This is running the ac, as it's out west... My only option I figure is to get a regular heavy RV type extension cord,, and plugging in to a heavier type outlet... What do you recomend ??? Modifying her Mom's wiring is out of the question... Don't think the neighbors wanting us running the generator (me neither) all day...
I already have a 30A to 20A adapter,, I use to keep things running in the garage,,, but of course no AC... Idea's ???? Thanks bunches,,,, Darel
...and all sorts of contradictory 'expert opinions'.

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This is IRV2. We do NOT call the guy.
Isn't this one of the entry criteria for the Darwin Awards?
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Old 05-23-2012, 03:49 PM   #110
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Isn't this one of the entry criteria for the Darwin Awards?
Well, that along with, "Hey, y'all! Hold my beer for me and watch THIS!"

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