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Old 01-10-2014, 08:15 PM   #15
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Even if you had the correct hose and full supply tank, you would be wasting your time. The vapor pressure in the supply tank will feed into the empty, but only up to equalized pressure. Unless you can transfer the LIQUID, you gain nothing, The vapor pressure in the tank is maintained by the boiling of the liquid propane in the tank as the the vapor pressure drops from discharge.The POL valve is designed to prevent liquid from escaping the cylinder. Remember, propane is measured in Gallons. You might be able to put propane in a tank by using a tank off of a forklift, they have a liquid port as well as a vapor port. Handling Liquid Propane is not for the normal consumer.
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Old 01-10-2014, 08:52 PM   #16
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"That's why propane vehicles and appliances don't work in low temperatures, there isn't enough vapour to provide sufficient fuel."

"That's not true either. Most vehicle engines use a vaporizer to turn liquid propane into vapor. The vaporizer uses engine heat to provide the latent heat of vaporization."



Do you prefer the chicken or the egg?

If the ambient temperature is to low to create enough vapour to let the engine start, let alone run long enough to start making heat, just what is the source of the heat in the (heater hose fed) vapourizer?


Just ask anyone who's tried to use propane in a cold climate.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:09 PM   #17
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"That's why propane vehicles and appliances don't work in low temperatures, there isn't enough vapour to provide sufficient fuel."

"That's not true either. Most vehicle engines use a vaporizer to turn liquid propane into vapor. The vaporizer uses engine heat to provide the latent heat of vaporization."

Do you prefer the chicken or the egg?

If the ambient temperature is to low to create enough vapour to let the engine start, let alone run long enough to start making heat, just what is the source of the heat in the (heater hose fed) vapourizer?

Just ask anyone who's tried to use propane in a cold climate.
Murf, In my business career I was fortunate to have part ownership of companies that operated in Montana among others that operated in southern states. Our rolling stock was fueled with propane. Sometimes we had to keep equipment running for days but we didn't have problems. I don't need to ask someone if it works, I've been there and done that. YMMV but I'm tired of arguing with you.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:25 PM   #18
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Is there a way to refill the 4 1/2 LB propane tanks from a 20 LB tank? Like one can refill the 1lb disposable bottles.
I was hoping for a better answer also, like maybe a link to where you can buy the hose with adapters to do this.

Hope this is'nt hijacking the thread, but I have a 4.5 or 5 lb bottle also with the old fashion valve that they won't fill any more. I used to work for a company that had their own propane tank and pump and I just filled it myself. I don't work there any more so I can't get it filled. A new 4.5 LB bottle cost about $60 to $70 and a 20LB cost about $25 to $30, go figure.
This is the reason I would like to fill it myself off a 20LB bottle.
However since I'm not having luck at finding the adapters needed, has any one just changed their own tank valve to the new OPD valve?
I hate to spend $60 on a 4.5 lb tank when I already have one and have to refill it 4+ times more often.
If I could find the right adapters, I would'nt mind if I could only get 3 lbs in it, but I've had good results refilling 1lb bottles by putting them in the freezer and the 20lb bottle , much warmer and upside down and seems to fill the 1lb pretty much all the way. I'm not enthused about doing as much as I was after I had at least one of the 1lb bottles start leaking after I refilled it. Maybe it was a bad bottle or just had been refilled one too many times.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:36 AM   #19
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Turn your 20# cylinder upside down.

This is how I fill my MH tank with a 100#er, that I fill off my home 500 gal. tank. I haven't filled a tank at a "regular" propane filling place in years.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:59 AM   #20
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Murf, In my business career I was fortunate to have part ownership of companies that operated in Montana among others that operated in southern states. Our rolling stock was fueled with propane. Sometimes we had to keep equipment running for days but we didn't have problems. I don't need to ask someone if it works, I've been there and done that. YMMV but I'm tired of arguing with you.
I'm pretty sure you just argued with yourself. I said you need to warm the propane to create vapour in order to provide fuel to the engine. You said no, that's not true, in fact we had to keep them running for days sometimes.

That was exactly my point, no heat, no propane vapour.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:32 AM   #21
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Once a propane appliance is actively in use, the liquid propane in a tank or cylinder begins to boil. The propane vapor, as boiled off the top of the liquid begins its journey downstream to the point at which it is used. Before making its way to the LP Gas system piping, it passes through the regulator where its pressure is reduced to a usable level. Keep in mind that the regulator will only deliver a constant pressure on the outlet side while inlet pressures can significantly vary. As the propane passes through the regulator, it expands (resulting in sub zero temperatures) and causes the regulator to gradually reach the extremely cold temperature of the propane vapor passing through it. Depending on the temperature and humidity of the surrounding air, the regulator will produce condensation, much like that of a frozen mug or glass taken out of a freezer.
Propane 101 - Promoting Propane Safety Through Understanding

Propane is always making vapor pressure when used, depending on outdoor temps. Winter vapor pressure is lower than summer pressures. Where I work, we have 16, 30,000 gal. lpg bullets, load 4-8 semi's per day along with a railroad 3 car loading/unloading setup. equalization of the vapor pressure
between the two transfer vessels is the key to moving the liquid.........Transports, RR cars are connected to a vapor line to equalize the vapor pressure between the two and the liquid is pumped. Now with this in mind, if one can raise the vapor pressure in the full cylinder and lower the vapor pressure in the MT one and the full cylinder is up side down so just liquid will flow out.........it may work. I have never tried it. How much money could one possibly save trying to do this VS just getting the cylinder refilled?
Propane too, has a boiling point. It's -44 F. So, if you had a bucket of propane and it was 50 or 60 below outside, technically it would not evaporate. But the minute it goes above that temperature, it wil boil and the gas will evaporate and you'll eventually wind up with an empty bucket. However, when we pump the propane into an enclosed cylinder, there won't be any place for it to evaporate. But, we do want to get some of the evaporated gas to run our propane appliances and there is a way to do this. By filling a propane cylinder to no more than 80%, there will be an open area above the surface of the liquid propane where the evaporating gasses can accumulate. Just a little bit of liquid propane will expand into a very large amount of propane gas and that's the stuff we want to get.
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Old 01-11-2014, 07:39 AM   #22
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I'm pretty sure you just argued with yourself. I said you need to warm the propane to create vapour in order to provide fuel to the engine. You said no, that's not true, in fact we had to keep them running for days sometimes.

That was exactly my point, no heat, no propane vapour.
Vehicles (and generators) running propane have liquid propane supplying an adapter mounted on top of the engine, and it's converted to vapor at that point? I don't have much experience with those, but it doesn't seem to me like it would take a lot of heat to convert that liquid to vapor at that point (outside the tank). Enough to start and idle long enough to produce enough heat to operate normally anyway.

That said, I am familiar with starting "stuff" in those cold temps. Never much fun, and there's the potential for "frosting" the plugs, making a spark impossible without thawing them out.... Likely one of the reasons the reasons for not shutting something off in REALLY cold temps?

BUT, that's wandering off topic a little I think? If your point were completely true, please explain why many tens of thousands of people are able to heat their propane fired furnace equipped homes efficiently using a process and components very similar to the ones used in an RV - while in -20 degree (and lower) weather ?

IMHO, when it get's to really cold temps, it IS actually about the amount of liquid surface area exposed to the gas side. It's why the tanks used for home heating are horizontal?

Also, I know methanol is sometimes introduced to the inside of the tank to keep anything from "freezing". That may also lower the potential operating temperature/boiling point of propane, but I don't know enough about the effects of that to argue it one way or the other. I do know, based on first hand experience, a propane heated home I had in northern Michigan worked flawlessly in some pretty incredible cold temps. FWIW, -Al
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Old 01-11-2014, 09:03 AM   #23
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Wow! All I was hoping for was a yes/no answer. And if yes "how". Sure am glad I didn't insult someone's Mama!! HA!!!
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Old 01-11-2014, 09:12 AM   #24
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Thanks .... However it only cost me $3.50 to fill it at U/Haul!!! Cheap
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Wow! All I was hoping for was a yes/no answer. And if yes "how". Sure am glad I didn't insult someone's Mama!! HA!!!
Hi Larry, you answered your own question in post #7. When asking a "simple".... yes or no question ,,with a "how to" attached to the question on here will never end up simple.......as you see.
Good luck with your propane transfer...........
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Old 01-11-2014, 09:44 AM   #25
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Agree. Possibility to fill has been answered. Regarding how, you already know. Regarding required hardware, that should require just a little footwork? Maybe a trip to a well equipped RV and/or propane dealer? If you're thinking you'll find something already made up for you, I doubt it. Regarding cost to assemble your own? Betting you aren't going to like it....
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Old 01-11-2014, 08:39 PM   #26
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Look on line for portable propane tank filler and you will find all kinds of Tubes on the subject showing how to do the fill from a larger tank to a smaller. YES IT CAN BE DONE as long as the doner tank has higher pressure than the smaller, mmmmm guess you could go either way if the receiving tank is colder.
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Old 01-11-2014, 09:11 PM   #27
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If your point were completely true, please explain why many tens of thousands of people are able to heat their propane fired furnace equipped homes efficiently using a process and components very similar to the ones used in an RV - while in -20 degree (and lower) weather ?

I do know, based on first hand experience, a propane heated home I had in northern Michigan worked flawlessly in some pretty incredible cold temps. FWIW, -Al
I think you missed the part where several people stated that at anything warmer than -44 F. propane boils and thus there's vapour to fuel whatever appliance is required.

In something like an RV the tank is in very close proximity to the object being warmed, the RV itself, and so the tank and so also the propane it contains, is further warmed.

I suspect there's very few hardy souls who camp in weather colder than -44 F. and so we just don't hear about the problems.
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Old 01-12-2014, 09:01 AM   #28
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Actually, it was this logic I was struggling with? I had highlighted it in your quote, maybe you missed it?

<<<no heat, no propane vapour.>>>

I agree with your last comment regarding anything warmer than -44. -Al
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