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Old 03-16-2016, 12:33 AM   #1
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99 Monaco Windsor side radiator CAC removal

Well, this is my 1st post to this site. I have searched every radiator removal,repair,recore,installation I can find on the Internet and I must say hats off to everyone posting on this dating back some time. I choose to post to this thread because it was the most receintly dated. (had to create a new thread because thread I tried to respond to was over 300 days old)
FYI I am typing or talking this into a iPhone so disrguard some of the auto correction spelling errors.
My coach or I should say my moms coach is a 99 monoco Windsor 38 8.3 cummins with a drivers side radiator. She just got her quotes back for repairs on it and 12,000 ish is the cummins center service quote. After I put the beer down and re read the quote, needless to say I'm in denial. The quote was for a new exhaust manifold, radiator, charge air cooler, transmission cooler and fan motor. I'd like to say I get e fan for that but nope. Add it all up and the beer wasn't working any more. Had to get out the whisky. I feel really bad for her as she just retired and bought a new to her coach in amazing shape. Other than the list of parts, had she had checked out by a experienced texh prior to purchase, may have altered her decision making on this particular coach she did and here I am with the whiskey thinking I should have been more involved in my mothers decision making. Lol. Feel the sarcasm. So now I painted a bit of the picture for you guys.
Being that I'm a capible mechanic that believes I can fix anything with the proper service manual and asking for help. Here I am asking for help. I have contacted several radiator specialist talked about on this site. Source, radiator supply house , cg&j or something like that. The genral consensus is about $7000 for the parts I need unless I go the local radiator shop route. Radiator is approx $3300,CAC is $1900, tranny cooler is $700. Intake manifold parts 600$, oh freight . But you get what you pay for So I will be doing the labor for her and not sparing on the parts. I want quality as this will not be fun and I never want to do it again. With the shape of th coach I see it being in he family for many years to come. No hill for a climber is my mindset. I have jacks, a tractor with forks, tools and about a full glass of drive (I won't be drinking during the job tho ) I'm thinking I will start this in a 2 weeks. I've already started soaking the manifold bolts in pb blaster. Prolly break 1 or 2 off from other threads I've read. So drill and retap if needed and not pay $165 an hour for that. But the only real concern I have is the removal of the BIG BOX that is my radiator charge air cooler and tranny cooler. Maybe an AC condensor there too ? I will post a few pics of what I'm dealing with. And hopefully with some of the hundreds if not thousands of years of combined Experiance on this site ( not an old guy joke either ) I will be able to tackle this job. I also plan on doing he exhaust while I have it apart and am waiting.
My first objective is to remove radiator, cac and get all the proper measurements I need to continue to shop around. I really trust the 2 guys I talked to a source. They really seemed to know there ****. But I still can't stomach the price of these units nearly as well as the whisky tonight. So any suggesting or tips or really anything helps at this point. I am either building a ramp to back up on for clearance or I'm jacking up the rig (chocked font tires of course) to get this side sucker out. I don't like the idea of lifting the rear wheels off the gound if I don't have too ? But at this point I'm willing to climb a hill as I said. I will lickley start a new thread on this. I have found very few that go into the detail i wanna read before I do something I've never done so picture will be in abundances with label parts baggage with locations and lots of pictures because it may be 2-4 weeks before I can put it all back together. I gotta say I found this article where a guy pulled this off in a campsite. Hats off to that fella. But maybe I'm ranting on and on here, am I crazy to think cost of these radiator cac units are ridiculous?.
Well now that I have written a short novel. If anyone takes the time to read all of this post and still wants to offer up some wisdom I thank you in advanced. What am I forgetting or missing ? Who has done this ? Any tips ?

Kris
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:09 PM   #2
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Many of these parts are quite expensive, I'm sure others will come along and recommend cheaper places to get necessary items of good quality.

Backing up onto ramps or using on board leveling jacks can raise back end, just keep in mind you lose parking brake when rear wheels off ground. Use proper rated jack stands or blocks if you use jacks to raise.

You won't find A/C condenser in the cool pack, they are usually elsewhere. You might have transmission or oil cooler in the mix. After removal of the parts, have them evaluated for rebuild or repair instead of just outright replacing.

Good luck and happy travels!
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Old 03-16-2016, 12:24 PM   #3
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I find it very interesting that all these components have to be replaced. My opinion is that I would remove these components and take them to a radiator shop for evaluation and repair as needed.

I did this work to our coach a couple of years ago. We were living in our coach at our son's place at the time. I did not jack up the coach, in fact all air was dumped and the coach was sitting level on the jacks. This was on coarse gravel. I laid large sheets of heavy duty cardboard underneath to work on. I found there was lots of room at the radiator area to work.


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Old 03-16-2016, 12:35 PM   #4
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Thank you bflinn for your thoughts. Im usually a don't fix it if it ain't broke kinda guy. However, certain parts like hoses I have no plan on re using. Hell hose clamps even. I am already considering having my local radiator shop bend me up new Charge air hard lines because these part show a lot of evidence of being driven in salted roads. From the thumbnail you can see what rust and deteriation im dealing with. But back to the radiator it doesn't appear to be leaking yet, I can easily have a local shop test it, only the CAC is leaking for now. But the trouble of this is if I want to do it right the 1st time and not leave whoever using it stranded at the mercy of some shop on the road with any of these parts I'm considering replacing now.
But again I thank you for your reply and your .02
Kris.
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:00 PM   #5
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Thanks for reply Jim. What year or make of coach did you do this job on ?
I have measured up everything I need for clearance. The COLD PACK is 27 1/2" tall and I have about 10" of clearance from ground to fiberglass skirting how is sits leveled on jacks with out streatching out the jacks capability. So I think I need about 24" if I tilt it or 30" if it's sitting on my floor jack to clear skirting. I understand the whole why fix it all if it's not leaking but from what I've read it's gonna or may come back to haunt me as Monaco sourced some of these units out to overseas quality and it's just a matter of time before it goes. Maybe that is only for the 02-06' models but again I really want to do this project once and put it in the review mirror. But again thanks Jim for the reply.
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Old 03-16-2016, 05:53 PM   #6
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I own a 2002 Windsor. I just had my radiator replaced, CAC rebuilt, and I replaced the exhaust manifold.

The radiator I got from CG&J, cost was $2350 + $150 shipping. I checked all available sources and CG&J was the best option. This was for a new aluminum radiator. Mine had an internal transmission cooler.

The CAC cost $1650 to rebuild, you should have your CAC checked first before rebuilding, chances are it will need to be rebuilt but you may get lucky and it may be good. When you remove it take it to a reputable radiator shop and

I had the above done at a Cummins shop, it was an insurance claim so I didn't have options. I bought the radiator and had the CAC repaired. I had them install an new water pump and thermostat and do a complete flush and new ES Compleat coolant. Cost was $7200, most of it was taken care of my insurance. My Cummins shop told me they mark anything up 50% they buy to put on your rig so when I bought the radiator and CAC it save me a bunch of money, I knew the manager and he agreed to let me do this.


Soon after I noticed my exhaust problem. My manifold cracked between the 3 & 4 cylinder, this was visible. If yours isn't cracked it could be the gaskets. It's a 2 piece manifold so chances of being warped would be minimal but it should be checked. Cost was $600 which include all new bolts and gaskets.

The cost you were quoted probably isn't that bad but if you are mechanically inclined you can fix this yourself. PM me if you have questions. I have a drawing of my radiator from CG&J and also one from Source Engineering.
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:50 PM   #7
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Jim, that's good to know, could you have posted a thread on this. I remember reading about this if that was you. I will pm you.
Yes the manifold has a crack in it. It's in pretty bad shape and needs replaced for sure. I did however find a reliable radiator shop 2 yours away I plan on looking into soon as I get the unit out. The CAC has a hole but I plan on doing some testing on radiator while its out. After reading your reply sit seems everyone is of opinion that fixing the unit of possible is the route to go. I'm defiantly exploring all my options for the kind on money gonna be spent.
Again thank you for your help
Kris
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:20 PM   #8
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Also, your unit probably has a thermovalve that controls the fan speed. It is located in the top back corner of the radiator. Make sure to mark the lines as you take them off. Get some #4 plugs for the hoses. When you take the thermovalve out be careful to keep it from getting any contamination in it.

When Cummins changed my radiator they crossed the lines when the reinstalled the thermovalve & lines. The fan ran wide open. I changed the lines around and that helped but the fan went to high RPM at 180F, it is not suppose to kick in until 185 and then proportional until high speed. I had to replace my thermovalve ($265), after installing the new one I took the old one apart and it had a piece of rag in it. So much for having the "experts" work on it. BTW Cummins would not reimburse any $$$$.

Good Luck
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Old 03-18-2016, 12:47 AM   #9
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"Krutzmart".......I did a similar job on a 2005 Monaco Diplomat. It was a rear radiator with a lot less access than the Windsor. It wasn't a hard job, just time consuming with a lot to disassemble.

I ran into the same issues with prices. After posting here, someone linked me to a place called Johnson's Surplus. You can find it under trailerparts.com. Sorry, I'm on an old IPad that won't let me do a link.

Johnson's bought out a bunch of Monaco surplus radiator assemblies when they went out of business in 2009. I got a brand new CAC, radiator, shrould, and trans cooler on a pallet for $650.00. I doubt they have any left (had about 20 at the time), but it's worth a check. They are an RV surplus store.

Tips.....the CAC takes the special spring loaded hose clamps that are usually junk once you take them off. I replaced all of the 2" radiator hoses when I did mine. Rather than try and buy all of the specific hoses, I found a company that sold silicone radiator hoses with straight, 90s and 45s. I looked at what I needed and ordered the hoses. For example......I needed a 90 with 6" on one side and 9" on the other. I also needed a 6" straight. So, I ordered a 90 with 12" on one side and 10" on the other. This gave me two of the pieces I needed.

Good luck, pre soak everything with a penetrating oil several times before you get started
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Old 03-18-2016, 08:05 PM   #10
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Don,
I read your thread a few times. Believe it Johnson still has that full cold pack on ebay for the rear radiator the measurements just don't jive with what I looking at. Trust me i would love to buy that and make it work somehow. I also found a different size but cold pack. But again it doesn't mount the same way and the measurement don't jive.
I'm wanting to go though all of the coolant piping, it's like 2 1/2", I'm not sure what kind of metal,steel they ar using there. I'll have a better look when it comes out. I'm planning on replacing coolant lines, CAC air lines and all exhaust at this time. Took it out today for a drive to check boost and its 24 but defiantly loss of power and the pac Brake is shot so I'm adding that to the list. I ?' The turbo, even though it's boosting good it looks really bad. As bad is th exhaust, all rusted and corroded. Maybe clean up and repaint it, maybe add it to th list. We'll see afte it come apart. I haven't run down a turbo shop but I believe it's a holset hx40.
Don, your write up was very helpful, even tho it's a rear unit, it helped me. Hell all of the info I'm getting has me anxious to get this over with.
Kris.
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Old 03-18-2016, 08:13 PM   #11
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Jim,
I have read a few articles about the thermovalve, so when we started the rig today I watched the fan, I starts right up soon as the coach starts. I couldn't tell if it has 2 speeds because I only heard and saw the 1'speed but it kicks on as soon as the coach starts. It was 60 degrees today and I couldn't get engine temp over 160 ish. So I'm wondering if my thermo lines are switched now ? It's kinda funny the engine bay looks great, but almost everything in the cooling and exhaust system looks horrible, corroded. I'm thinking this coach was in Florida in its previous life or on a coast with salt water, or from salted roads, like where it lives now
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Old 03-18-2016, 08:26 PM   #12
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If your fan is running when you first start the engine that's OK. When you first start the rig the fan will be at an idle. This is to pull enough air through the radiator stack, which includes the AC Condenser.

You engine should run at ~180F, which is what the thermostat should be at.

Once the engine temp gets to ~185F the fan will start increasing in speed, it will be at full speed when the engine temp gets to ~199F.
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Old 03-18-2016, 11:29 PM   #13
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"Krutzmart".....Unless the measurements are WAY off, it might be worth your time and $$$$ to do a little fabrication. That setup from Johnsons is for an 8.9 liter engine. It would certainly provide plenty of cooling for the 8.3 liter engine.

I know I paid $650.00 and the last time I looked it it was $1250.00. Even $2000.00 would be a huge savings.
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Old 03-19-2016, 09:01 AM   #14
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Krutzman,

In your first post you never indicated what was wrong with the radiator that causing it to need replacement. You state Transimission cooler, my cooler was internal to the radiator. There is a separate hydraulic oil cooler that bolts under the CAC, this may be what you mean but what is wrong with the cooler. These are heavily built and have a light duty cycle.

There was a suggestion of modifying a rear radiator stack to your needs, I would be surprised if this would work but it's up to your capability and access to equipment for fabrication.

Unfortunately Monaco used different radiator sizes and configurations for models and even different sizes for engine size. The quote I got from Monaco was for a RS-1425, it would fit the Dynasty, Windsor, and HR Imperial 2000. My Windsor had the options for 330-370HP and had 2 options for radiators. BTW, the quote was for $6400 for the radiator alone.

I also got a quote from Source ~$3600

When I first contacted CG&J they did not have a drawing on the Windsor radiator so they actually recommended sending my old radiator in for rebuild, estimate of cost was $3500. During the time my rig first went into the shop to when the Insurance company finally agreed on a cost with Cummins CG&J actually had someone come in with a 2002 Windsor so they had a pattern to work with. They then quoted my $2350 + shipping for a new aluminum radiator. If you go with a new radiator I doubt you will get a better price.

I had no reason to believe my CAC was bad, I was getting ~22psi boost pressure but since it was out I decided to take and have it tested. It leaked all over, one place very bad. So I had it rebuilt. I now get ~24 psi boost. Cost benefit of having mine fixed was minimal, I was expecting possibly better fuel economy but after a ~4K trip no joy.

When my rig was being worked on at the Cummins shop I took the time to go down and watch the progress on the job, I knew the manager (he had worked for me) so the shop people treated me "nice". They had the convenience of being able to lift my coach up on a large lift. It did make the job easier but not necessary, there is enough room to be able to work provided you can lift the back of you coach slightly.

If you have jack stands I would suggest you put blocks under your hydraulic jacks and lift it as much as possible and use the jack stands for safety. This would give you enough room to remove the radiator and CAC.

Do not disconnect the AC condenser, just unbolt it from the CAC mount and tie it up out of the way, that way you won't have to loose the refrigerant and have to recharge. (Note>>> Cummins wanted to remove it in their quote and the cost added ~$500 due to the refrigerant etc).

Leave the fan as an assembly, you probably have 4 bolts holding the fan/motor onto the radiator. Take the bolts out and just tie the fan assembly off to the side onto the RV main chassis member.

I would drain all the coolant out of the radiator/engine into clean containers, take a sample and send it off for analysis. I had my coolant tested just before my radiator damage and it was good. I got a kit from JG Lubrication for ~$35. If the coolant is good no reason you can't use it, which would save $$$$. If you want to change now is the time, if you go back with the original type you don't have to flush but if you change types you'll have to flush multiple times. You current system may use a coolant filter, if so it will be next to the oil filter on the engine. Check to see if you have to add SCA to the coolant, this will dictate what type of coolant you need.

Since my coolant (green in color) was lost and I had to pump plain water through the system to move my coach so a tow truck could hook up. I had Cummins replace with ES Compleat (blue in color) and it cost $$ for a full flush and new coolant. The ES Compleat concentrate cost $35/gal, there is cheaper (and as good) of alternatives.

Once you have the hoses loose from the radiator and CAC & the sheet metal removed you should be able to remove the 2 bolts that suspend the radiator from main support. If you have a tractor you should be able to support the stack and gradually drop it to the ground. From there you should be able to tilt it and pull it out. You can then decouple the radiator from the CAC.

If you are spraying penetrating oil onto your manifold bolts you should be OK. I did this the day before I changed my manifold and didn't have any problems getting the bolts out. Overall the manifold change wasn't a bad job, just had to lay down and work through the closet hatch. If you are changing yours while you are working on the CAC it will be easier as the turbo will come loose easily and go back easy. While you are working on this I would check your PAC brake, make sure it is working and go ahead and lubricate it. PAC brake sells a high temp lubricant that you can buy relatively cheaply from multiple sources, and it will go a long way.

Good luck
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