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Old 07-10-2015, 09:13 PM   #29
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I would think the "undisclosed underground source" is pretty conclusive. Not from the rear of the motorhome.

Trouble is, once a ponderous bureaucratic machine has begun moving, it is all but impossible to re-direct it, regardless of common sense and facts.
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Old 07-11-2015, 07:04 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winepress View Post
I think I'm in the clear, but will have attorney review before I respond. I'm puzzled as to why I even got the notice.
Well you discharged sewage.. And the discharge was near the rear of your motor home.. THat is all they read.. they skipped the "From an underground source" part.

Now: As to any advice I can give you.. It seems you are already taking it (Seek advice of professional attorney) so you are doing the right thing.

I'd go after them for sending the bill in the first place.

And ask the attorny about the value of going public.
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Old 07-11-2015, 10:08 AM   #31
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Like stated before...go on offense!

Lawyers cost money unless yours works for beer or is friend.

So while there and on your dime ask about recovery of costs via sending a letter to campground stating these costs were due to their "unsafe and hazardous conditions" and you expect your costs to be fully recovered as well as any personal cleanup etc.

This is a health and safety issue that the county should be going after big time and hopefully the cg also has a notice in their hands too.


One could call the local to the cg news station to ask if they have heard of any such issues...That would make things real interesting.
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Old 07-11-2015, 12:43 PM   #32
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Isn't this request for $$ a civil matter? Why not just ignore it until they make something out of it? Put the burden of proof on them?

Yes it is but there is a significant difference between Civil and Criminal law.

You know that old line "Innocent until proven guilty" Well Guilty and Innocent are CRIMINAL terms.. They do not apply in Civil court.

In Civil court it is Responsible until proven not responsible.

In short, the burden of proof is on the defendent.

As it happens I think he has met that burden.. But then I have working brain.. Can not say judge and jury will agree.

(I hate to make political statements here... But just now I am hearing of many Judges who are demonstrating their stupidity over a political issue..NO I WILL NOT SAY WHO OR WHAT ISSUE).
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Old 07-14-2015, 04:23 PM   #33
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Quote:
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Last month I was staying in a small RV park just overnight. In the morning I dumped my black tank that was full. About five minutes in to the process I smelled sewer. Looked around and at the rear of the campsite there was my raw sewage flowing out of some clean out in the ground. I let the office know and about ten minutes later the fire department showed up and put on haz mat suits with all sorts of clean up materials. It was quite the scene and you should have seen the looks I was getting. After the clean up, about two hours, I was on my way.
Today I get a bill for $3,277 for clean up and citation for illegal discharge of sewage. I called the park and they know nothing and strangely have no record of the incident. Then I called the county and they just have my name only as listed on their report as the responsible party. The county person was not helpful or understanding in any way, rude would be a better description.

What's my next step?


How about providing us the name and location of that campground? I sure don't want to stay there.
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Old 07-14-2015, 04:26 PM   #34
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Not a lawyer, but without pictures, names of witnesses and campground employees, I would say your next step is get out your checkbook.
Wtih advise like that is a good thing you are not a lawyer

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Old 07-14-2015, 04:30 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Greatscot View Post
Not a lawyer, but without pictures, names of witnesses and campground employees, I would say your next step is get out your checkbook.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxy View Post
Wtih advise like that is a good thing you are not a lawyer

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Just maybe he is a Lawyer....................
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Old 07-14-2015, 04:35 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wa8yxm View Post
Yes it is but there is a significant difference between Civil and Criminal law.

You know that old line "Innocent until proven guilty" Well Guilty and Innocent are CRIMINAL terms.. They do not apply in Civil court.

In Civil court it is Responsible until proven not responsible.

In short, the burden of proof is on the defendent.

As it happens I think he has met that burden.. But then I have working brain.. Can not say judge and jury will agree.

(I hate to make political statements here... But just now I am hearing of many Judges who are demonstrating their stupidity over a political issue..NO I WILL NOT SAY WHO OR WHAT ISSUE).
.
you are incorrect sir, it is the proponderance of the evidence on the balance of probabilities, not even close to responsible until proven otherwise, that is a found commiting reverse onus situation which this is not.

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Old 07-14-2015, 04:36 PM   #37
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Just maybe he is a Lawyer....................
if he is he needs to pick another profession, not withstanding the fact that he says NOT A LAWYER which in my books is a dead giveaway,
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Old 07-14-2015, 06:14 PM   #38
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I realize sometimes when you're dealing with the government on any level common sense doesn't enter the equation. However I don't know that I would run to an attorney at this point. Here are the pertinent facts you posted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winepress View Post
Last month I was staying in a small RV park just overnight. In the morning I dumped my black tank that was full. About five minutes in to the process I smelled sewer. Looked around and at the rear of the campsite there was my raw sewage flowing out of some clean out in the ground. I let the office know and about ten minutes later the fire department showed up and put on haz mat suits with all sorts of clean up materials.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Winepress View Post
I got the report. Under statements there is the campground manager stating customer discharged sewage. Then there is my statement saying exactly as I listed in my original post.
Then the fire department stated the location of the discharge to be at the rear of my motorhome from an undisclosed underground source.

I think I'm in the clear, but will have attorney review before I respond. I'm puzzled as to why I even got the notice.
I would write a letter to whoever sent you the bill outlining the above, and pointing out that you have nothing to do with the underground pipes, which would be the responsibility of the campground owner.

You may in fact still need an attorney, but it might have to be one licensed to practice law in the jurisdiction where the incident occurred.

You might also want to send them a copy of the RV movie to demonstrate when a coach owner might be responsible for an illegal sewerage discharge.
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Old 07-14-2015, 06:17 PM   #39
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Update: met with our attorney today. She asked that I put a letter together stating all the facts and send it to her. She will then craft (her words) a letter to the county.
Hopeful that this will go away.
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Old 07-14-2015, 06:39 PM   #40
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Are you close enough to go take a picture of where your sewer hose was connected along with the clean out where the sewage came out of?? Is the Camp Ground close to Barstow, CA? I might be able to have a family member get a picture for you.
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Old 07-14-2015, 07:33 PM   #41
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The spiller pay ordinance that is most likely in effect is the reason you recieved the bill (cheap for a hazmat). Since it was a private property you can tell the county or fire department/clean up company to pursue collection from the property owner. Unless there is a clause in the campground agreement stating your responsible for sewage spills from within the private system, your of the hook. I'm both a firefighter and hazmat tech. The FD is recouping costs for the equipment and manpower used.
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Old 07-15-2015, 12:35 AM   #42
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As I wrote before, there is no proof that the discharge was yours and I believe your agreement with the park most likely indicates that you would be provided with sewer services
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