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Old 11-03-2013, 10:30 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dmorgan6375 View Post
Bottom line, I think the keys have to be in place to start and run the car/truck, thus the best place would have been in his pocket or the glovebox. !
That certainly makes sense... but both of my friends popped for this in California had the keys in their pockets.

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Old 11-03-2013, 10:51 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by tedgard01 View Post
LOL

I simply never get plastered... Never get over the limit... Tried too much as a younger man, hated the next day... I just don't have the desire, besides, it conflicts with all my other drugs.... LOL
I, like you, don't drink much anymore. Had my fill in my younger years. Now I get a hangover whether I have 1 drink or ten and it takes days to recouperate. Too many lost valuable days!

My current job also has a lot of responsibility. I work for an emergency company and am on-call much of the time. Just not worth it to try to consume. I have been known to let loose a little when on holidays and camping though LoL
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Old 11-03-2013, 08:34 PM   #59
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"Oldme" recited what every law enforcement officer now goes through for everything from drunk drivers to sexual harassment. Once you've been trained as a Peace Officer in a particular subject, you sign a document that states you were trained and the Department is then no longer responsible for your acts.

One other item that changed how things like DUI's are handled is the electronic age. If a guy was stopped for DUI and driven home, allowed to sleep it off in his car or some other action was taken, it was hard to track in years past. Now with electronic entries of every vehicle that is stopped or who is contacted, a neighboring state can see if someone was stopped earlier in the evening, even in another state. Attorneys looking to sue anyone and everyone can now easily track this information.

A lot of agencies run cameras (attached to the outer edges of the light bars) that photograph EVERY license plate the radio car drives past in an 8 hour shift, even if the car is parked at the curb or driving in the opposite direction. Those plates can be later pulled up to see where they were at a given time of day.
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:18 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Diplomat Don View Post
Once you've been trained as a Peace Officer in a particular subject, you sign a document that states you were trained and the Department is then no longer responsible for your acts.

.
That sounds really strange to me Don.

Can departments really relieve themselves of liability just by getting a LEO to sign a waiver?

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Old 11-04-2013, 06:21 PM   #61
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That sounds really strange to me Don.

Can departments really relieve themselves of liability just by getting a LEO to sign a waiver?

Rick
I'm sure the officers were told that true or not. I don't think it true either.

The sad fact is that is hard to weed out the bad ones when sometimes the pay is less than $10 per hour.

I was the 2nd oldest in my Academy in 97-98 when I was 34.
Many were 20-26 years old.
We had a little mental stress test where they left a dozen box of doughnuts one day and setup a "hidden camera" that we of course found with little looking Each person was interrogated (A week later) about the doughnuts. They told every one they thinking cancelling the whole class that year. I was spending $200 a month of my one money to attend and when they ask me about the doughnuts I told I didn't touch them because they weren't mine (the truth) and as I said it I was calm a sleeping kitten. then they let me in on the test and said I passed.
I graduated 3rd in my class didn't take much in the way of notes and did miss one day of classes. For several years after that I came out with the new classes and plays the bad guy during building search training (we used paint ball guns, it was great fun. )
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Old 11-04-2013, 06:28 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldme View Post
The statement that I made have come from my personal
experience of 26 years as a LEO and 7 years as a
State Certified LEO Instructor.
Ever see how many arrests are turned over in court because the officer was wrong?
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Old 11-05-2013, 09:41 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RickO View Post
That sounds really strange to me Don.

Can departments really relieve themselves of liability just by getting a LEO to sign a waiver?

Rick
Yes they can and do.

That is the paper trail for training that protects everyone else. It eliminates vicarious liability.

The State attorneys and Lawmakers came up with that in the late 1960's and it has worked ever since.

The added Departmental Policies also protect everyone else.

Officer Friendly retired.
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Old 11-05-2013, 10:06 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Mr_D View Post
Ever see how many arrests are turned over in court because the officer was wrong?

Maybe nothing major in the local court.
However any dismissal of an arrest indicates that the court
believes the LEO made a mistake. Either in not following
the Local Judicial Interpretation of the Law, a procedure
that was not followed, improper application of a Law, etc.

Simple example is a radar ticket.
NHTSA demands training by the Officer on a speed detection device.
Expired training document is a reason for dismissal. So is no yearly calibration certification of the unit or a log entry at the start of a shift
and end of a shift for the self-test of the unit.

However in the State and Federal Supreme Courts,
there are many cases turned over on appeal.
That is what they are really saying when the Courts rules
against the State on appeal.

Most of you major criminal rulings came from a Judge's
interpretation that somewhere, somehow an Officer
made a mistake.
Example: The LEO failed to have Probable Cause for the
arrest or search or warrant. The case was dismissed.

Everyone of the Court decisions linked in my other posts,
reflect what the court decided after viewing the Officers actions.
From those Federal Court Decisions, the rules and policies
governing arrest and conduct are made that affect all of
Law Enforcement in their future actions.

There are also many State Court rulings that never get to the
Federal Level and they also affect that state position, rules and
policies. If there is a conflict, Federal Rulings trump State Rulings.
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Old 11-05-2013, 11:47 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Mekanic View Post
I'm sure the officers were told that true or not. I don't think it true either.

The sad fact is that is hard to weed out the bad ones when sometimes the pay is less than $10 per hour.

I was the 2nd oldest in my Academy in 97-98 when I was 34.
Many were 20-26 years old.
We had a little mental stress test where they left a dozen box of doughnuts one day and setup a "hidden camera" that we of course found with little looking Each person was interrogated (A week later) about the doughnuts. They told every one they thinking cancelling the whole class that year. I was spending $200 a month of my one money to attend and when they ask me about the doughnuts I told I didn't touch them because they weren't mine (the truth) and as I said it I was calm a sleeping kitten. then they let me in on the test and said I passed.
I graduated 3rd in my class didn't take much in the way of notes and did miss one day of classes. For several years after that I came out with the new classes and plays the bad guy during building search training (we used paint ball guns, it was great fun. )

Your time in the Academy was before all the major changes.

Back on post #47 I stated (this is in reference to Va, where
I was certified and trained):
"PD Academy started an intense paper trail of all training.
The Officer had to sign that he had been trained on each
topic and signing his test papers. He was also re-trained
and re-tested on any area he failed to make a 100% test
score on until that 100% was met. Up to 3 times.
If he failed to meet 100% after the 3rd try he was out."

Many of us both Patrolmen and Instructor question the 100%
requirement. NO other profession has that standard.
Not even the lawyers/lawmakers that wrote it.

We were advised that this was the national training trend
and it stopped vicarious liability in it's tracks. Training, testing,
re-training, testing on the re-training. The retraining and re-testing
was also individualized for each officer. It was a pain for the instructor.
This trend started in the early to mid 1970's.

That was good for me as a instructor, I am unsure if the average
rookie understood it. I know it works. Once I handed over the
in-house training records and the Academy did the same,
it was all on the shoulders of the Officer. I was removed from the
lawsuit as were the others listed ion my other post.
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Old 11-05-2013, 03:28 PM   #66
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Keep in mind that this is a bit over simplified. In Washington, to be considered a motor home, the vehicle must meet five of seven legal criterions. If it's legally a motor home, which includes certain Class B's, then it is NOT subject to the same laws as an automobile regarding alcohol (and seatbelts, too).

Open containers and occupants drinking while driving is legal here (and in some other states as well) while in a motor home. The driver, when driving (obviously) IS subject to the rules, but once stopped, it's ok for the driver to drink as long as they don't drive again while over the limit. Think "party bus". It's basically the same rules. Just google the laws for your state to find out what you need to know.

So, come to rainy Washington, and quit worrying about having a drink in a parking lot!
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Old 11-05-2013, 04:05 PM   #67
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Your time in the Academy was before all the major changes.
..........
Many of us both Patrolmen and Instructor question the 100%
requirement. NO other profession has that standard.
Not even the lawyers/lawmakers that wrote it.
.........
WOW I have a question.
Are they scoring shooting at 100% as well??
I was told they would NEVER do that because if you shot 100%

And then under all stress of a real shooting got lucky and shot a suspect between the eyes when we were taught to shoot center mass then it would be said you did it on purpose??
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Old 11-05-2013, 04:32 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diplomat Don View Post
Once you've been trained as a Peace Officer in a particular subject, you sign a document that states you were trained and the Department is then no longer responsible for your acts.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickO View Post
That sounds really strange to me Don.

Can departments really relieve themselves of liability just by getting a LEO to sign a waiver?

Rick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldme View Post
Yes they can and do.

That is the paper trail for training that protects everyone else. It eliminates vicarious liability.

The State attorneys and Lawmakers came up with that in the late 1960's and it has worked ever since.

The added Departmental Policies also protect everyone else.

Officer Friendly retired.
Sorry, but this is amazing to me and I want to make sure I understand.

So... if a municipality can show that their officers have been "properly trained"... then they are "no longer responsible for the officer's actions" while on duty? Aren't they still an agent of the municipality and acting on their behalf?

If this is all true, I wonder why Los Angeles has had to pay out so many millions in lawsuits. Is it really all because they lack documented training?

Rick
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Old 11-05-2013, 05:00 PM   #69
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Rick

I am with you. There have been 4 or 5 people killed by LEO's in this area in the last 10 to 15 years. Everyone but one resulted in large payouts by the City or County involved. Not one penny came from the LEO's pocket. Maybe California has different laws?
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Old 11-05-2013, 05:32 PM   #70
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There was an interesting case here in BC recently. A gentleman had (he claims) a couple of beers and rather than take a chance had his grandson who has a learner's permit drive. They were pulled over in a roadside check, grandpa was cited for being under the influence even though he was not driving and didn't blow over the limit. However the officer applied the same rules reasoning that he was essentially in charge of the vehicle in a supervisory role. He was fined, forfeited the vehicle for 30 days and is required to take a course.
There is no law on the books regarding this situation but the AG won't step in. He is leaving it up to the courts but the gentleman is not in a financial position to take it on.
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