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Old 09-01-2013, 07:46 PM   #1
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Engine Idling Laws... APU (gen) too?

Has anyone run afoul of renewed focus on engine idling laws? Been ticketed?
Older idle laws have been on books since 70s.
But, now some places have re-written very short 3-4 minute engine idle limits. While some diesel engine mfr require cool down period of 5-10+ minutes and a few will not even shut-down (with key turned off) until a certain engine temperature is reached. Cool down (idling) on diesel engines is not new. Ever see a HOT turbo-charger seize up... Not pretty...
OTR truckers are complaining about $350.+ tickets, issued even at Interstate rest areas. One guy was ticketed for using an APU (generator) to run air conditioner so he could sleep. RV generator use is not exempt, nor will it be (equal treatment for all under these laws).
I wonder if they ticket school bus operators on cold mornings, or other LEOs who sit and idle in a parked patrol vehicle (equal treatment?).
I use to idle my troller engine (during winter) for 20 minutes before getting underway. Cool down idling on many acft engines is also required by mfr and FAA as a required routine shut-down (maintenance) sequence. Wonder if they will ticket pilots and boat owners next.
The old curse... may we live in interesting times...
Think twice where you run your gen-set, or idle your engine, it could cost ya...
Just something to ponder...
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:02 PM   #2
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I have to believe that most cool down idling is overdone. Yes if you zip off the interstate after doing 70+ and pull to a dead stop then the engine might need some cool down time. But a gradual pull off into a rest area should provide time for a turbo to wind down and other engine coolants to do their job to not require a long cool down idle.

As far as running gen's that is an issue.

Air cooled aircraft engines should also have plenty of time to cool down after landing and taxi from the active runway to the tarmac and subsequent parking not to require lengthy idling.
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:22 PM   #3
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Just exactly where are the police wasting their time enforcing these stupid laws??
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Old 09-01-2013, 08:29 PM   #4
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Pretty much every where. Easy ticket easy $$$ for them. It will only get worse!!!!
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:04 PM   #5
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I gotta cry foul on this one...just do a quick search of "engine idle laws."

Even the "Peoples Socialist Republic of California" exempts the APS of commercial trucks from these anti-idle laws...as long as the APS is CARB compliant:
Heavy-Duty Vehicle Idling Emission Reduction Program

Most of the laws target commercial Diesel truck's primary propulsion engine. I would not doubt that local law enforcement could ticket a Diesel RV under the same laws, but if you check your states laws, I bet you will find the gennie is exempt.

Knowedge is power.
Safe travels

P.s. Looks like another reason to love my gas powered RV
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:11 PM   #6
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Here is a list of current rules for commercial trucking. Updated quarterly but laws change daily. Cities may have different rules than the county/state too.

http://www.atri-online.org/research/...ing_Compendium
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Old 09-01-2013, 09:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildtoad View Post
I have to believe that most cool down idling is overdone. Yes if you zip off the interstate after doing 70+ and pull to a dead stop then the engine might need some cool down time. But a gradual pull off into a rest area should provide time for a turbo to wind down and other engine coolants to do their job to not require a long cool down idle.

As far as running gen's that is an issue.

Air cooled aircraft engines should also have plenty of time to cool down after landing and taxi from the active runway to the tarmac and subsequent parking not to require lengthy idling.
Aircraft Engines do not cool while taxing. That
is why Cessna recommends take off as soon as power can be applied smoothly without hesitation.
It is only the tips of the propeller that move air In front of the cowl there is very minimal air movement. Unlike the fan behind a radiator.
I have lots of experience with this as I have owned a few.
I do agree about the turbo comment.
My concern is the hot pistons.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:05 PM   #8
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Today most truck stops have electricity pedestals for truckers rest periods, to reduce needless idling.
I must agree with wildtoad, most idling is overdone. I even had one MH owner tell me his diesel engine had to reach operating temperature before he could leave the CG_Ignorance is bliss.
Even the Cummins owners manual states otherwise; 3-5 minutes for cool-down after pulling a heavy load at highway speed, drive at reduced speed after the engine registers oil pressure until the temperature gauge begins to register heat, etc.
I don't know about others engine, but every one of my diesels begin to register heat before I can get to an interstate onramp.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:34 PM   #9
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Reading EPA report on recommendations to Idling Law it does state APU (gens) should be exempt. Report goes on to state that many locations have ignored that EPA recommendation and are citing APU operation. The EPA report also stated receiving complaints by OTR drivers being cited for APU use.
The EPA report acknowledged a need for diesel engine idling of 5-10 minutes before shut-down, dependant on ambient air temperature and engine temperature. Yet some existing idling law states violation shall exist after three (3) minutes of engine idle.
Further reading on trends updating these current engine idle laws, shows a leaning to include ALL vehicles, as the intent of emission reduction is not unique to just commercial vehicles. Hard to cite an OTR operator and not that RV idling or running APU parked next to them.
The tip of this ice-berg is showing that RV industry and owners best pay attention.
Or we RV owners can ignore it and say “Wow… didn’t see this one coming…”
IMO, the courts will find ‘equal treatment under the law’ is not occurring today.
Just something to ponder. Have a good evening…
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:31 AM   #10
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I'll get concerned abut this the next time I see or hear of somebody actually getting a ticket.

Asking/forcing a trucker to take his mandatory 8 hour break in the dead of winter with no heat doesn't sound very practical to me at all. Or shutting the refer down on a load of produce?

Not going to say there's no such thing as power outlets in the truck stops, but I haven't seen them anyplace I've ever been? Rest areas? Love's? Pilot's?
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Old 09-02-2013, 07:50 AM   #11
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Quote:
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I'll get concerned abut this the next time I see or hear of somebody actually getting a ticket.

Asking/forcing a trucker to take his mandatory 8 hour break in the dead of winter with no heat doesn't sound very practical to me at all. Or shutting the refer down on a load of produce?

Not going to say there's no such thing as power outlets in the truck stops, but I haven't seen them anyplace I've ever been? Rest areas? Love's? Pilot's?
I recently noticed them on the Florida Turnpike rest stops ... haven't seen them on the Fl. Interstates.

They are:
Truck stop electrification

Note they aren't free ...
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Old 09-02-2013, 08:52 AM   #12
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Up here in Cannuckistan the restrictions seem to be a little different.

First off, they only cover the vehicles engine, not an APU or genset. Secondly they almost always have exemptions for various things, first and foremost being temperature. Usually temperatures of over 81 deg. F. (27 deg. C.) or under 23 deg. F. (-5 deg. C.) mean you can idle engines.
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Old 09-02-2013, 10:53 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Murf2u View Post
Up here in Cannuckistan the restrictions seem to be a little different.

First off, they only cover the vehicles engine, not an APU or genset. Secondly they almost always have exemptions for various things, first and foremost being temperature. Usually temperatures of over 81 deg. F. (27 deg. C.) or under 23 deg. F. (-5 deg. C.) mean you can idle engines.
There ya' go ... tryin' to do sensible stuff ... STOP NOW !!
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Old 09-02-2013, 11:05 AM   #14
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And my manual states that when stopping to run engine until temperature reaches normal. For me that is between 189 and 192 degrees. That does not happen when I exit an interstate ramp into a rest area. I usually have to idle for 1 to 2 minutes.

I'll have to re-read the manual as it also states the conditions where one does not have to warm up the engine before driving it. This typically applies to me as I never travel in extreme cold weather and I also run the engine for a few minutes allowing the alternator to assist in retracting the slides and jacks.

I guess one could slow down to 5 mph coming off the interstate ramp and just "tic" others behind them off. That may allow enough time to cool down.
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