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Old 10-26-2013, 09:11 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by mcshanks View Post

If you flat tow a toad be careful when going down a long grade, the slow down mechanism + brake light signal = BRAKES ON on the toad. I came down off Tennessee Gap in Colorado to see smoking tires on toad near the bottom and had to turn off my Retarder. Lesson learned.
Whoever did your install for the Toad Braking System did it incorrectly.

I would take it back and have them re-do it so it is correct.

The brakes on the toad should ONLY be applied when and ONLY when you press on the service brakes of the coach.

Dr4Film ----- Richard
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Old 10-27-2013, 08:45 AM   #16
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Just to expand on what Dr4Film wrote:

The exhaust brake isn't activating the Toad brakes unless the exhaust brake wiring is totally screwed up, and I doubt that. Some function of the Toad aux. brake system could be doing so. On many coaches, including mine, the MH and Toad brake lights are activated when the exhaust brake activates, but not the Toad brake system.

Not all Toad braking systems are created equal.

The best ones only operate the Toad brakes when the MH brake pedal is depressed. These include, among others, systems like Air Force One.

Systems that use any other method to apply the Toad brakes are suspect to apply the Toad brakes when the exhaust brake slows the rig if they are out of proper adjustment. Those systems include surge brakes and systems with any kind of inertia sensing instrument to actuate the Toad brakes. While these systems are known to work, they often need to have adjustments made to work properly.

The exhaust brake is such an important safety device that it is important to at least use it on long down grades. Do what ever is necessary to fix the Toad brake system and keep the exhaust brake operating.

Good Luck!
Wil
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Old 10-27-2013, 09:03 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by wil01 View Post
Just to expand on what Dr4Film wrote:

The exhaust brake isn't activating the Toad brakes unless the exhaust brake wiring is totally screwed up, and I doubt that. Some function of the Toad aux. brake system could be doing so. On many coaches, including mine, the MH and Toad brake lights are activated when the exhaust brake activates, but not the Toad brake system.

Not all Toad braking systems are created equal.

The best ones only operate the Toad brakes when the MH brake pedal is depressed. These include, among others, systems like Air Force One.

Systems that use any other method to apply the Toad brakes are suspect to apply the Toad brakes when the exhaust brake slows the rig if they are out of proper adjustment. Those systems include surge brakes and systems with any kind of inertia sensing instrument to actuate the Toad brakes. While these systems are known to work, they often need to have adjustments made to work properly.

The exhaust brake is such an important safety device that it is important to at least use it on long down grades. Do what ever is necessary to fix the Toad brake system and keep the exhaust brake operating.

Good Luck!
Wil
As I said the op needs to get educated elsewhere. This response is flawed do to the bias towards af1 as an example.The moderators should lock this thread do to inaccurate information on an important safety matter that people with limited knowledge keep expressing.
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Old 10-27-2013, 09:56 AM   #18
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I beg to differ with you. If the braking system is inertia based and uses the braking signal from the coach as a trigger to activate the brake controller, then it is entirely possible the have the toad brakes activate from the exhaust brake. To be specific, the brake signal should come from the brake light switch off of the coach brake pedal, and not from an output to the brake lights which could also be activated by the exhaust brake.

I do agree with you that there is a lot of misinformation in this thread, but like anything else gleaned from the internet, it is only worth what you pay for it. Use it as a guide to gather more information rather than as an absolute to act on.
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Old 10-27-2013, 10:51 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by JerryGal View Post
During the dealer's intro to the Phaeton, it was suggested to leave the Exhaust brake off unless we entered some rough terrain. Is that considered to be the correct advice out there?
Yes.
Looks like all the responses and digressions scared you off.
The best advice you got in this thread was to practice using it. You will find it either extremely helpful or somewhat annoying...depending on the situation. That is why it has an on/off switch.

It took me a while to figure out how to keep just the right amount of pressure on the accelerator...while coasting...to keep the exhaust brake from activating. Leaving the switch on and activating cruise control is probably not a good idea...and can happen quite a lot. When you disengage the cruise, such as you described to let somebody merge in front of you...and your foot is not on the pedal...the exhaust brake comes on...and your brake lights...and maybe even a downshift. Not good for the people behind you.

I also found the exhaust brake does not activate above 55-60 mph...so plan ahead when approaching a downgrade...or use the coach brakes to set up your descent. Bottom line...you are going to love it in the mountains. On those steep switchbacks, you can maintain 15 mph without even touching the brakes.
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Old 10-27-2013, 12:03 PM   #20
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Yes.
Looks like all the responses and digressions scared you off.
The best advice you got in this thread was to practice using it. You will find it either extremely helpful or somewhat annoying...depending on the situation. That is why it has an on/off switch.

It took me a while to figure out how to keep just the right amount of pressure on the accelerator...while coasting...to keep the exhaust brake from activating. Leaving the switch on and activating cruise control is probably not a good idea...and can happen quite a lot. When you disengage the cruise, such as you described to let somebody merge in front of you...and your foot is not on the pedal...the exhaust brake comes on...and your brake lights...and maybe even a downshift. Not good for the people behind you.

I also found the exhaust brake does not activate above 55-60 mph...so plan ahead when approaching a downgrade...or use the coach brakes to set up your descent. Bottom line...you are going to love it in the mountains. On those steep switchbacks, you can maintain 15 mph without even touching the brakes.
Air Baron,
Well, since the OP is apparently on permanent vacation, I'll just take the time to ask you this. You say your E-Brake does NOT activate above 55-60. I don't like doubting anyone's statements on these threads because so many things are so different from coach to coach, year to year and model to model. So, this is the first time I've heard of any coach, no matter what year/make/model, that has the E-brake de-activate above any given mph. Has it always worked this way?

Are you sure you're not getting ANY activation from it at those higher speeds? I know if mine, if activated at above about 63 MPH, say, 65 or higher, it does work but, because of the pre-programmed speed VS trans ECM and more, not sure, it will downshift to 5th only at that speed. Now, as stated, it works and, many times, downshifting to 5th is perfect for certain conditions we're operating in at the time. It is slowing, all be it, not that much or, it may be just holding the speed at the set/activated speed.

But, as it begins to slow, down to very close to 63 mph, + or -, it will then down shift to 4th. At that point, the engine RPMs immediately climb to about 2500 - 2600. And, as you know the braking force is really accentuated at that point, way more so than above the 63 MPH.

So, just wondering, does it state in any of either yours or any literature, that your chassis's make/model/year that it's suppose to deactivate above the speeds you indicated? I'm just trying to learn here. It's always good to how certain systems work on these things. Thanks.
Scott
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Old 10-27-2013, 12:11 PM   #21
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Air Baron,
Well, since the OP is apparently on permanent vacation, I'll just take the time to ask you this. You say your E-Brake does NOT activate above 55-60. I don't like doubting anyone's statements on these threads because so many things are so different from coach to coach, year to year and model to model. So, this is the first time I've heard of any coach, no matter what year/make/model, that has the E-brake de-activate above any given mph. Has it always worked this way?

Are you sure you're not getting ANY activation from it at those higher speeds? I know if mine, if activated at above about 63 MPH, say, 65 or higher, it does work but, because of the pre-programmed speed VS trans ECM and more, not sure, it will downshift to 5th only at that speed. Now, as stated, it works and, many times, downshifting to 5th is perfect for certain conditions we're operating in at the time. It is slowing, all be it, not that much or, it may be just holding the speed at the set/activated speed.

But, as it begins to slow, down to very close to 63 mph, + or -, it will then down shift to 4th. At that point, the engine RPMs immediately climb to about 2500 - 2600. And, as you know the braking force is really accentuated at that point, way more so than above the 63 MPH.

So, just wondering, does it state in any of either yours or any literature, that your chassis's make/model/year that it's suppose to deactivate above the speeds you indicated? I'm just trying to learn here. It's always good to how certain systems work on these things. Thanks.
Scott
Great you take over as I surrender trying to keep this thread from bogus braking info. You put this quite eloquently and have more patience than me. You could be a moderator.
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Old 10-27-2013, 12:38 PM   #22
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I also found the exhaust brake does not activate above 55-60 mph.
Not to rain on your parade BUT, again, more misinformation.

If you have the Exhaust Brake Switch turned ON and your REMOVE your foot completely from the accelerator, the first thing you should notice is that the Allison transmission will switch to Gear #2 if you have a dual display or using the SIlverLeaf VMSpc display but the Allison will ONLY downshift to a safe gear for the speed that you are doing. it uses #2 as it's aim point.

If you are barreling down the highway at a high rate of speed it may not be as noticeable as it is at lower speeds but the Exhaust Brake DOES work.

As your speed decreases the Allison will continue to downshift through its gears until about 15 -20 mph where the Exhaust Brake will disengage.


If you had a true Jake Compression Brake, trust me, if you turned it on at 65 or 70 mph, there would be no doubt that it is working.

Dr4Film ----- Richard
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Old 10-27-2013, 01:34 PM   #23
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Air Baron,
Well, since the OP is apparently on permanent vacation, I'll just take the time to ask you this. You say your E-Brake does NOT activate above 55-60. I don't like doubting anyone's statements on these threads because so many things are so different from coach to coach, year to year and model to model. So, this is the first time I've heard of any coach, no matter what year/make/model, that has the E-brake de-activate above any given mph. Has it always worked this way?

Are you sure you're not getting ANY activation from it at those higher speeds? I know if mine, if activated at above about 63 MPH, say, 65 or higher, it does work but, because of the pre-programmed speed VS trans ECM and more, not sure, it will downshift to 5th only at that speed. Now, as stated, it works and, many times, downshifting to 5th is perfect for certain conditions we're operating in at the time. It is slowing, all be it, not that much or, it may be just holding the speed at the set/activated speed.

But, as it begins to slow, down to very close to 63 mph, + or -, it will then down shift to 4th. At that point, the engine RPMs immediately climb to about 2500 - 2600. And, as you know the braking force is really accentuated at that point, way more so than above the 63 MPH.

So, just wondering, does it state in any of either yours or any literature, that your chassis's make/model/year that it's suppose to deactivate above the speeds you indicated? I'm just trying to learn here. It's always good to how certain systems work on these things. Thanks.
Scott
Hi Scott. I'll respond to you rather than the know-it-all wanna-be forum cop(s)....

Nothing in the literature. No indicator light for the E-brake. I never said that it deactivated. It appears to me that it does not activate. As the grade increases, so does the vehicle speed. On several occasions I have seen it hit 70 and keep climbing. If I apply the foot brake and get the speed back down, the exhaust braking and downshifting will commence. Maybe it is just my year of coach. Maybe there is something wrong with the programming or the E-brake. I am sure the opinions will be forthcoming. For me...it is not a problem. I don't think anybody with a 36,000 lb rig needs to begin a steep descent above 60 mph anyway.
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Old 10-31-2013, 05:52 PM   #24
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An unrelated $0.02.

The switch is right where you need it to flip when needed. I do NOT leave mine on all the time because I like the fuel economy gains of coasting, which is very difficult to do with the exhaust brake on. I certainly use mine on flat ground occasionally, and flip it in an instant when the light changes and I need more braking power, but I like to coast as much as possible on flat ground. I also often disengage the exhaust brake when descending and near the bottom of the hill, that is free potential energy becoming kinetic.

Play with it. Another point, my wife isn't a fan of the exhaust brake on flat ground, it makes for very "un" smooth driving.

Chris.
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Old 10-31-2013, 07:49 PM   #25
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Hi Scott. I'll respond to you rather than the know-it-all wanna-be forum cop(s)....

Nothing in the literature. No indicator light for the E-brake. I never said that it deactivated. It appears to me that it does not activate. As the grade increases, so does the vehicle speed. On several occasions I have seen it hit 70 and keep climbing. If I apply the foot brake and get the speed back down, the exhaust braking and downshifting will commence. Maybe it is just my year of coach. Maybe there is something wrong with the programming or the E-brake. I am sure the opinions will be forthcoming. For me...it is not a problem. I don't think anybody with a 36,000 lb rig needs to begin a steep descent above 60 mph anyway.
Air Baron,
As I've stated many times in many answers, these rigs all have something a little different. The way yours acts when trying to activate the E-brake at speeds above 65 or so, may have a totally different feel than how it feels when ours is activated at that speed. As stated, ours does activate but, when cruising at or above 65, and, in 6th gear, and, the gas pedal has been released completely, the trans will down shift to 5th only. The indicator will have a target of "2" in the selector window.

Now, if, like you say, the grade is such that, it is too steep for it (the E-brake) to be even minimally effective, the coach will continue at that speed or, even rise in speed. But, that does not mean the E-brake is not on. It's just not strong enough at that speed and gear, to be as effective as it is at the slower speeds and using lower gears.

And, no, ours also does not have any indicator lights etc. that come on when the E-brake is activated. Our Medallion Information Center, will display "Exhaust Brake" when it is activated but, I know it's on so, I don't look at that info center.

As for yours at that speed, maybe it's working and you just don't feel its effectiveness or, it's not working. In a case like this, it would be interesting for you to see, at what speed you do feel it working as you decend from around 65 or there abouts. And, notice your tach when just before and after you first feel it working. Let us know what you find out if you do a test like this. Also like stated, I'm always learning.
Scott
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:05 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Dr4Film View Post
Whoever did your install for the Toad Braking System did it incorrectly.

I would take it back and have them re-do it so it is correct.

The brakes on the toad should ONLY be applied when and ONLY when you press on the service brakes of the coach.

Dr4Film ----- Richard
I have an SMI Stay-in Play that I first used on a gasser,the instructions said use the brake light to activate it.
I installed it on my Discovery and hooked up the same way,with stated results,I have modified the system and removed the brake light activation and changed to brake pedal activation since the incident. My statement
was just a caution to others.
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:19 AM   #27
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The Allison retarder is a fairly expensive option and not often seen on a Discovery or anything else in that price class. And it certainly is not standard on that chassis.
Checking the spec sheets on the Freightliner Custom Chassis web site, I see that the chassis on the 2005 Providence included an "exhaust brake". For full details on your chassis, see 2005 Providence Chassis Specs ; "borrowed from cruiser"[/QUOTE]

The Allison manual I have says the 3000 MH can have a retarder, but fails to be specific,so I have a switch for retard and my engine brake comes on and my gears go from 6-2. I found a manual with a picture of the difference in retarder/no retarder,crawled under MH and looked,someone stole my retarder and put in nor retarder transmission. LOL
Didn't know how one worked or what they looked like until I found the other manual.
To be correct I have an engine brake and 6-2 transmission gear down.
Cured brake light problem in another post.
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