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Old 03-30-2016, 01:55 PM   #57
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I walk out on ONE lie and do not tolerate one cent of price gouging.

Too many dealers out there for you to put up with any hanky-panky.

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Old 03-30-2016, 02:18 PM   #58
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How Much Lying And Price Gouging Does It Take For You To Walk Away From An Rv...

Quote:
Originally Posted by oakcreekeric View Post
Are you willing to let the dealership make 5%, 10%, 15% ??? Is that too much to ask ?? How much should a salesperson make on a $300k RV, assuming the buying "process" could take as much as a year of his time??

Since this thread originated from a customer viewpoint, I will point out that we as customers don't know or care what the dealership or the salesperson makes on the sale, nor should we. We are there to buy a product, not help run the business or make a charitable donation. It is up to the dealership to design and implement a viable business plan. On the drive to breakfast this morning we passed at least a dozen vacant businesses, including a car dealership. Their business plans were no longer viable.

Given equal pricing for a product that is going to be made by the same people on the same assembly line regardless of where we buy it, we as customers are interested in added value such as:

* Inventory - Can I kick the tires and take the family camping next weekend?

* Will the buying/delivery process go smoothly without requiring weeks or months of effort and frustration on my part?

* Will the dealership correct warranty issues quickly without fuss?

* Will I drive away feeling good about my purchase and subsequent RVing experience?

What is each of these items worth? $100? Sure! $1000? Probably. $5000? ...
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Old 03-30-2016, 03:38 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by TwelveVolt View Post
Since this thread originated from a customer viewpoint, I will point out that we as customers don't know or care what the dealership or the salesperson makes on the sale, nor should we. We are there to buy a product, not help run the business or make a charitable donation. It is up to the dealership to design and implement a viable business plan. On the drive to breakfast this morning we passed at least a dozen vacant businesses, including a car dealership. Their business plans were no longer viable.

Given equal pricing for a product that is going to be made by the same people on the same assembly line regardless of where we buy it, we as customers are interested in added value such as:

* Inventory - Can I kick the tires and take the family camping next weekend?

* Will the buying/delivery process go smoothly without requiring weeks or months of effort and frustration on my part?

* Will the dealership correct warranty issues quickly without fuss?

* Will I drive away feeling good about my purchase and subsequent RVing experience?

What is each of these items worth? $100? Sure! $1000? Probably. $5000? ...
Look... just so you know.. I don't sell RV's... or anything related to the RV world...

I'm just pointing out the reason there are so few "Sales Professionals" in the RV world, and even in the car world...

Everything you mentioned...
  • in stock
  • smooth process
  • reliable service department
  • overall experience
All above cost money.. and to that end.. the business model is VERY different than the guy who receives an email.. puts out a low-ball number and then has his customer come get it and never see's him again...


We hear that approach to buying time and time again on this forum... lets shotgun our build sheet and buy from the lowest bidder (no matter where)... BUT... when it comes time to have it serviced/fixed/warrantied... we walk into our local dealership (the one they didn't buy from, but used his inventory to test drive and used his sales person's time to ask questions) and expect premium service... and when the dealer decides to take care of HIS paying customers first, we get upset...

Look.. I get aggravated just as much as the next guy at poor salesmanship.. and the OP was WAY MORE tolerant than most of us.. but I also understand these guys need to make money.. and they all make it in different ways..

And as you say "we as customers don't know or care what the dealership or the salesperson makes on the sale, nor should we"... I guess that's a little bit short sighted...

Unless you enjoy buying from a large corporate type dealership (ie. Camping World), you should care... because if you don't want the Camping World experience.. you should probably try to patronize the smaller family run organizations so they don't go out of business... cause if we don't help our locally owned, family businesses, they will eventually be bought out by the conglomerates (Camping World).... and personally, I don't ever want to buy an RV from them... I'd rather buy local and keep my money in the community...
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Old 03-30-2016, 09:26 PM   #60
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"A good deal is one that both the buyer and seller are satisfied"

But later comes the product support that sadly seems to be lacking from a lot of RV mfgs lately.

Then there is the newbie buyer that has been taken in by the advertisements reflecting a life on wheels that will rival their home lifestyle and then the posts on IRV2 begin...

Can't begin to enumerate the number of posters here that buy first, and ask later, about what they bought and why something isn't measuring up to expectations.
"I bought an XXXXX last weekend, what are your opinions about it?"
No wonder RV salesmen don't have to be professional people...

CW serves a purpose in the RV world--I like to shop there at times, but another local RV dealer has a hugely larger parts inventory if you really need a hard-to-find part.

I have purchased 6 Ford trucks since 2001, and each time I had to fight off the lot salesperson as I drove in to look at inventory--after a conversation, none of them had ever looked at the sales brochure in the office. It is now easy to shop on the internet for just about anything, and if the local outlet can't offer something above and beyond what the internet can, why not go with the lowest deal? With cars and trucks, the standards are so cast in stone, it works; with RVs, it doesn't work like the automotive industry and it is easy to get caught up in the bling of the new RV over the bones of it.

"Buyer Beware" Its your money and if you don't protect it, someone is going to take care of it for you.

I feel sad for the honest/experienced RV salesman, his job is really difficult. But then, there is a MH lot south of where I live (advertises its the largest in the US) that proudly displays a large LED billboard: 25% off EVERY motorhome in our inventory. If they can do this, just what meaning does the MSRP have???

Might as well be in politics...

Joe
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Old 03-30-2016, 10:20 PM   #61
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How Much Lying And Price Gouging Does It Take For You To Walk Away From An Rv...

Quote:
Originally Posted by oakcreekeric View Post
Unless you enjoy buying from a large corporate type dealership (ie. Camping World), you should care... because if you don't want the Camping World experience.. you should probably try to patronize the smaller family run organizations so they don't go out of business... cause if we don't help our locally owned, family businesses, they will eventually be bought out by the conglomerates (Camping World).... and personally, I don't ever want to buy an RV from them... I'd rather buy local and keep my money in the community...

Reality check...sorry.
I bought my DP as a consignment at a family owned dealership. A good way to go because the broker in the middle can convince the seller that the coach is worth what someone will pay for it, not what is owed to the bank.

Big smiles, firm handshakes. A pleasant customer service experience. Right up to the moment the money changed hands. Never heard from them again. Chassis work that was agreed upon in the written agreement was not done. Never responded to a voice mail or letter. I had to pay another shop thousands more to actually do the work. They never even returned the excess portion of licensing fees. They effectively collected state taxes that were never submitted to the state. I believe they also charged the seller quite a few dollars for doing work that the dealership deemed necessary. Generating repeat business was clearly not part of their business plan.

So I have to seriously question the logic that it is inherently good to favor a family owned business.
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Old 03-30-2016, 10:34 PM   #62
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Your experience is not limited to family-owned businesses. Several posts over the years of same results with corporate companies.
Not long ago, what was labeled as the largest volume towable RV dealer in the country in Cleburne, TX, went under from what came out in the newspaper as non-payment of sales taxes, and other irregularities. This from memory, might not be accurate as to details.
Integrity is not inherent to either format of the RV business...
Joe
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Old 03-30-2016, 10:36 PM   #63
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So, let's see. Hypothetically speaking, I pay more to buy my motorhome locally, close to home, to support the local dealer. Then I drive 1000 or 2000 miles and the motorhome breaks down. Where's the 'local dealer' now?

Then, to add irony to irony, I find another one of these 'local dealers' 1000 or 2000 miles from home and he tells me that he won't fix my motorhome because I didn't buy it from him!

I think this kind of nonsense has to end, because it's 2016.

Jim
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Old 03-30-2016, 10:48 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Papa_Jim View Post
I think this kind of nonsense has to end, because it's 2016.
Sounds like you want more government intervention in what is a private business, correct?
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Old 03-31-2016, 12:48 AM   #65
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You know, Eric and Twelve Volt, I think you're both right actually. I also see a fair bit of what everyone has said in this thread out there in the world.

Like the thing about "nice being confused with weakness", or I might add to that, the lack of intelligence. I've been on the receiving end of that before. But, I can't change who I am. It's how I was raised up and I make no apologies for it. It's my nature to offer "nice". It does tick you off though when you sense someone is thinking you're weak or a pushover, and don't forget "dumb money" in the case of doing business........because you're friendly.

Now I'm going to likely give some of you a big laugh; personally, I want my RV dealer, or car/truck dealer, whatever, to be my "home". I get treated right, we're both happy with our transactions, we exchange respect and decency, I'm your customer for life. If I only bought one RV in my life, I'd still want a lifetime relationship being among friends with the dealer I chose. I still need service after all. If I'm a repeat buyer, I get rewarded for that with solid deals. For me, it's the simple two way street. After that good relationship is established, only the dealer can choose to abandon it. I'm loyal to those who take care of business fair and square.

Why do I entertain such a "ridiculous" seemingly dying notion? Well, like I said in an earlier post, I guess I'm from a land time forgot. Although I submit stubbornly that what I described is not yet impossible. I observed my dad, he bought the majority of his farm machinery from one dealer. They were good friends, and they made good deals.

I hesitated for quite a while to write this post. Some will say I'm out of touch, a man who's hangin' on to a bygone concept in a world of every man for himself. Perhaps.

Just some of my thoughts/experiences folks. Not judging anyone.

Best regards,
W.D.
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Old 03-31-2016, 07:10 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Mr_D View Post
Sounds like you want more government intervention in what is a private business, correct?
Actually, no. Quite the opposite actually.

As a recently retired businessman, I recognize that this is 2016. With the growth of internet marketing and electronic communication, our world is a totally new and different marketplace. I believe that traditional business models will have a lot of adapting to do, not only to be successful, but to survive.

Jim
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Old 03-31-2016, 10:00 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oakcreekeric View Post
Look... just so you know.. I don't sell RV's... or anything related to the RV world...

I'm just pointing out the reason there are so few "Sales Professionals" in the RV world, and even in the car world...

Everything you mentioned...
  • in stock
  • smooth process
  • reliable service department
  • overall experience
All above cost money.. and to that end.. the business model is VERY different than the guy who receives an email.. puts out a low-ball number and then has his customer come get it and never see's him again...


We hear that approach to buying time and time again on this forum... lets shotgun our build sheet and buy from the lowest bidder (no matter where)... BUT... when it comes time to have it serviced/fixed/warrantied... we walk into our local dealership (the one they didn't buy from, but used his inventory to test drive and used his sales person's time to ask questions) and expect premium service... and when the dealer decides to take care of HIS paying customers first, we get upset...

Look.. I get aggravated just as much as the next guy at poor salesmanship.. and the OP was WAY MORE tolerant than most of us.. but I also understand these guys need to make money.. and they all make it in different ways..

And as you say "we as customers don't know or care what the dealership or the salesperson makes on the sale, nor should we"... I guess that's a little bit short sighted...

Unless you enjoy buying from a large corporate type dealership (ie. Camping World), you should care... because if you don't want the Camping World experience.. you should probably try to patronize the smaller family run organizations so they don't go out of business... cause if we don't help our locally owned, family businesses, they will eventually be bought out by the conglomerates (Camping World).... and personally, I don't ever want to buy an RV from them... I'd rather buy local and keep my money in the community...

Couldn't have said it better myself. I think if some folks actually knew the true cost of transporting, cleaning, setting up, prepping, delivering, customer training and paperwork, just to sell a large coach they would quickly see that their lowball offers are only met by the dealers that slap their sticker on the back and send them out the door. Properly prepping and delivering a large 5th wheel costs a minimum of 1000.00 and Im being conservative. Thats if we dont run into any issues like the family that looked at your unit last week and while mr and mrs Jones were Ohinng and Awwing over the pretty paint, little Johhny was inside tearing the trim off a cabinet or jumping on the bed with dirty shoes or the inexperienced RV'r who just broke the refrigerator door trying to yank it open.

I know that most folks really don't care what it costs the dealer, they just want the best deal. Sometimes you get what you pay for and other times you REALLY get what you pay for.

I read the dealers response that was attatched and I believe somewhere between the two stories lies the truth.
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Old 03-31-2016, 10:32 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Electra 225 View Post
You know, Eric and Twelve Volt, I think you're both right actually. I also see a fair bit of what everyone has said in this thread out there in the world.

Like the thing about "nice being confused with weakness", or I might add to that, the lack of intelligence. I've been on the receiving end of that before. But, I can't change who I am. It's how I was raised up and I make no apologies for it. It's my nature to offer "nice". It does tick you off though when you sense someone is thinking you're weak or a pushover, and don't forget "dumb money" in the case of doing business........because you're friendly.

Now I'm going to likely give some of you a big laugh; personally, I want my RV dealer, or car/truck dealer, whatever, to be my "home". I get treated right, we're both happy with our transactions, we exchange respect and decency, I'm your customer for life. If I only bought one RV in my life, I'd still want a lifetime relationship being among friends with the dealer I chose. I still need service after all. If I'm a repeat buyer, I get rewarded for that with solid deals. For me, it's the simple two way street. After that good relationship is established, only the dealer can choose to abandon it. I'm loyal to those who take care of business fair and square.

Why do I entertain such a "ridiculous" seemingly dying notion? Well, like I said in an earlier post, I guess I'm from a land time forgot. Although I submit stubbornly that what I described is not yet impossible. I observed my dad, he bought the majority of his farm machinery from one dealer. They were good friends, and they made good deals.

I hesitated for quite a while to write this post. Some will say I'm out of touch, a man who's hangin' on to a bygone concept in a world of every man for himself. Perhaps.

Just some of my thoughts/experiences folks. Not judging anyone.

Best regards,
W.D.


No, your not out of touch. Ive run dealerships for 30 years and we love customers just like you and guys like you do get better treatment. My father in law bought his cars from me for years. I really dont treat him any differently than my other customers. He has his favorite salesperson and he handles the deal. My father in law comes in knowing what a good deal is and he gets it. He also takes the time to enjoy the process and cultivate a friendship with the guys. If he's in the area on a saturday, he often stops in and drops off a dozen donuts to the guys upfront and a dozen back in service. Lets face it, his son in law is the General Manager, he doesn't have to do these things but he is just that kind of guy. My guys don't jump to attention because he's the GM's father in law, they jump to attention because he has went out of his way to appreciate what they do for him and the appreciation is mutual. I'm no longer with that dealership but he will continue to enjoy that same relationship with the guys and gals that are their and He picks up his new 2016 next week. It's a two way street. There are dealers that dont lie and know what they're talking about and do care for their customers.
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Old 03-31-2016, 11:37 AM   #69
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"Land that time forgot". Or as I refer to myself,...."a man born too late". Obviously I use internet, and smart phones as well, but all this "new age", "cyber" stuff just turns me off. Maybe (OK,....there is no "maybe" here!)....the reason I gravitate toward vintage technology, is my aversion toward "new". New rules, new norms, new customs, new laws........

Many valid, and concise arguments in this thread. From both sides (dealers, and consumers). As I mentioned before, I was a dealer (car dealer, not RV), and I see MANY issues with MANY dealers today. The "environment" is different today. Technology is advancing at accelerated pace, and it seems people (and their actions) are following the trend. Nobody has enough time any more. No time to talk ("texting" instead,.....which still leaves me baffled,....nobody I know can type faster than talk!!), no time to develop "relationships" (either with customers, offsprings, or even spouses). But I digress (as usual).


Dealers are crying how running the dealership "costs money". Really? That's some kind of news to you? Dealers are competing with each other to be "#1 dealer" for the factory (to get breaks/rebates, hard to get inventory, Bahama vacations,......etc.). So dealers are actually PERPETUATING this lunacy, where they work with minuscule margins, and struggling to survive. As all dealers (good dealers) know,....volume is EVERYTHING, but with one important caveat........never (as in NEVER-EVER) "cut your own throat" to make the "deal"! Deal is not a "deal", unless ALL expenses are covered! Not necessarily making the profit, but not neglecting ACTUAL costs in the unit being sold (and that includes EVERYTHING, from utilities, payroll, supplies, taxes.......anotherwords, every and last "PAYABLE"!).

As I see it today,......many "Internet dealers" are keeping their payables low, by keeping small (substandard) inventory, and cutting corners just to get the "volume" (and maybe "all expense paid vacation" in Grand Cayman in the guise of "dealer convention"!).

Dealers need to realize that the ONLY way for them to stay in business (with profit) is to include every expense into the OTD price, regardless if that "makes the deal" or not. It's better to let the customer walk, than dip in your own pocket. However,......as this thread originally started, SOMETIMES the 'deal' goes south (for the lack of communication mainly, to be augmented by untrained, "too busy" salesmen), and the dealer has to revert to the ONE and ONLY adage in the business,.......CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT! (even when they are full of it!)

On the other side of this coin,.....customers need to be "educated" in what it takes to run the dealership (and some of you are saying "I don't care" ). Well maybe you should. Next time you go out to buy a vehicle, maybe you will have to drive twice as far to see the exact make/model that you want to test drive, if you are lucky that the dealer has it in inventory.
Back in my "dealing days" (mid 90s) I used to show the invoice to ANY customer that asked. When they looked carefully at that, they sometimes asked "what is this $2500 over here?" And I would tell them......"my profit"! Most people understood that the business needs profit in order to operate. Sometimes I faced customers that absolutely refused to pay ANY profit! Those I sent away, and told them to try the same thing in Best Buy (for example) on the purchase of their next big screen TV.

Dealership is NOT community service organization staffed by volunteers! People need to be PAID for their work. Next time you sit across a salesman (and ask every question you can come up with!!) ask yourself how much time did you take from that person? How much do YOU earn per hour of your time? How much you "think" this salesman's time is worth? You can also ask yourself how would you feel if the dealer asks you to pay for your own gas to test drive (no, it's NOT "free", like anything else in this world!!).

However,......if one of my staff pissed the customer off, I was willing to "go on the deck" (or below) to make the customer happy. Referral is EVERYTHING in this business (forget advertising,.....although very much needed,.....the best profit comes from the deals that are referred to the dealer!!).


Dealers that "advertise" 25% off MSRP are shooting themselves in the foot, and the industry in general, by giving the impression to the public that they are making ENORMOUS amount of money on their units, which most ARE NOT. IF the MSRP can be dropped by 25%, it was set too high to begin with!

And for the ones that refuse to pay profit,........next time you go to your local supermarket, and pay $2.50 for a pound of ripe tomatoes on the vine (regular Stater Bros. price in CA), you need to know that this tomato was purchased by the chain for .25-.35 cents/lb from the grower, AFTER he paid for water, labor to harvest it, and after his PROFIT (the rest is the profit of the chain!). I could give you the profit margins for several industries, and you pay them daily without any complaints! Not relevant? I can guarantee you that you will spend WAY more of your hard earned money on groceries, than on RVs in your lifetime.


Like I told you......."born too late".
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Old 03-31-2016, 04:34 PM   #70
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We have the 3 strikes and out rule. We can make an adjustment in the sale price for one or two things, but 3? That's a pattern and headaches are sure to follow.
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