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Old 04-09-2016, 10:49 AM   #15
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We have hybrid buses in our area. They are the size of the typical diesel pusher motorhome. Some may say, "well, buses do more stop and go than an RV", but these particular buses are those for commuters and they do spend quite a bit of time on the highway. Converting these buses that already look like a motorhome seem to be a no brainer.

In the west there are many places on the highway that are not flat. I see countless examples of where a hybrid would benefit on the down hill side, especially if the motorhome is also pulling a toad/dinghy.

Now I realize that locomotives are much different than on road vehicles but they use electric motors for propulsion. Seems that one day we will figure a similar system for those triple-trailer trucks that I regularly see on the interstate.

My speculation is that the reason comes more down to the size of the potential market than the technology limitations as shown by the bus example above.
My opinion on the Hybrid bus' is that they are a heavily subsidised, green initiative vehciles, paid for by tax $.

Higher initial cost and little to no savings.

IMHO, the only proof of something working is when the private sector wants it.
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Old 04-09-2016, 10:53 AM   #16
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We have hybrid buses in our area. They are the size of the typical diesel pusher motorhome..

What area are you in? I've never heard of an electric bus other than those getting their power via overhead wire. I'd love to know more about this.
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Old 04-09-2016, 11:56 AM   #17
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That's certainly not what I experience in my Ford C Max hybrid. As long as I'm at 65mph or less the electric motors are contributing nicely. A bit above 65 and they are out of the game and its gas engine alone. My best gas mileage comes at a steady 45.

Now compared to gas only vehicles hybrids have the biggest advantage over the competition in stop and go traffic, but relative to themselves a steady moderate speed provides the best mileage available.
We experience the same thing with our Toyota Hybrid. Sometimes my wife will follow me in the MH and when she does, we get about 48 MPG average. It is rated at 39 highway/42 City, but it does get better gas mileage on the freeway if you drive it right. We regularly get about 42-44 MPG average.

The other day I saw a Pepsi Truck, big rig with a sleeper, pulling a regular size eighteen wheeler type trailer parked at a store parking lot. The cab of the truck was marked with "Hybrid" graphics. I couldn't find the driver to see how he liked it for power/gas mileage ect. But it made me wonder is the hybrid MH just around the corner. I think so, but they will be fairly expensive to purchase and most likely take many miles of savings to offset the cost.
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Old 04-09-2016, 12:07 PM   #18
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I have not done much research into "Hybrid Vehicles" and my comments will reflect that.

Using common sense I wonder about the net benefit of hybrid. First it will cost more to build a hybrid, the cost of generating electricity is still at the cost of pollution or fossil fuel consumption (we do not have hydro power here of any amount and are very unlikely to, jury is out on wind farms).

Then there is the disposal of said batteries and hybrid features.

Now all of the fire departments have to re-equip for electrical fire at any vehicle accident. In order to re-equip they require larger trucks and additional training.

Where is the benefit? Oh and by the way all of the tax breaks and incentives come from our pockets.
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Old 04-09-2016, 12:24 PM   #19
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BUSINESS

New York City Scrapping Nearly A Fourth Of Its Hybrid Bus Engines For 100% Diesel Bus Engines

BY*ANGELO YOUNG*@ANGELOYOUNG_*ON07/01/13 AT 2:11 PM

Fifteen years ago, New York City began rolling out its first hybrid buses in a much ballyhooed program to green up the city’s public transportation program.

But now, three years after the city bought its last diesel-electric buses, it is apparently pulling back on the hybrid program, taking about a fourth of the city’s 1,677 diesel-electric hybrid buses and swapping out their hybrid engines for newer diesel ones.

The news comes as cities across the world have adopted greener technology in public transport vehicles to reduce emissions -- including nitrogen oxide gases that cause ozone air pollution and the micro-particles in vehicle exhaust that cause respiratory problems, especially among children and the elderly. New York City has about 5,700 buses.

The number of hybrids will be reduced gradually from 1,677 to 1,288. The city maintains 14 different bus models, including the Orion VII, which is manufactured by Orion International at facilities in Mississauga, Ontario, and Oriskany, N.Y.

The main reason for the swap to 100 percent diesel is fiscal; as warranties expire on the hybrid engines, the city will have to take on the added cost of maintaining hybrid systems. **

“The electric-traction motors are burning out,” a source at the city’s maintenance division told the New York Post*in a report published Sunday. “They’re so expensive to replace that it’ll be cheaper to stick a diesel engine in there.”

The Post said Indiana-based engine maker Cummins Inc. has a contract to evaluate the best way to convert the buses to 100 percent diesel, but a company spokesman on Monday was unable to confirm any details about its involvement in the program.

An MTA representative told IBTimes on Monday that hybrid city buses work best with “intense stop-and-go routes where the average speed is 8 miles per hour.” In situations where buses travel longer distances at higher speeds, the hybrid system is less useful because the lithium ion battery harvests power from when the vehicle brakes and when the bus is coasting. The MTA says it will maintain the hybrid engines for buses in Manhattan, which travel much slower and brake more often than the buses in the outer boroughs.

Newer diesel technology -- such as the clean diesel TDI system that Volkswagen AG (FRA:VOW3) uses in many of its sedans -- has become more fuel efficient than many comparable hybrid cars. Like other internal combustion engines, the new diesel technology releases the same pollutants, but not nearly as much as traditional diesels used to put out.
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Old 04-09-2016, 12:41 PM   #20
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I have not done much research into "Hybrid Vehicles" and my comments will reflect that.

Using common sense I wonder about the net benefit of hybrid. First it will cost more to build a hybrid, the cost of generating electricity is still at the cost of pollution or fossil fuel consumption (we do not have hydro power here of any amount and are very unlikely to, jury is out on wind farms).

Then there is the disposal of said batteries and hybrid features.

Now all of the fire departments have to re-equip for electrical fire at any vehicle accident. In order to re-equip they require larger trucks and additional training.

Where is the benefit? Oh and by the way all of the tax breaks and incentives come from our pockets.
You really need to do your research before putting out what you believe rather than what is. People have been bagging on the Gas companies and automakers for years saying that they are in conspiracy with each other and that they are holding back the development of the Electric and hybrid cars to maintain their profits. Then they come out on the market and people complain the other way, like some of the comments you make.

The Hybrid cars are very economical and burn less gas which is the ultimate goal. We just took a driving trip around the US and covered about 7,000 miles total on the trip, using only a half the amount of gas we would have in our other car. We paid the burden for the price of the Hybrid over the regular Camry, not you or anyone else, there were no tax incentives. I think it cost us about $4000 more than the regular full gas Toyota. But a lot of people are using these type vehicles, which accumatively reduces the need dramatically for fossil fuels. I think most people buy them more for their contribution to a cleaner healthy environment than they do to save money. The way the Hybrid works, it does not create more pollution to charge the lithium battery, it simply does it while the gas engine is running, in certain modes, and captures the energy that is lost that regular cars could generate. So I don't know where you come up with that theory. Then when you are in full electric mode, you are creating zero pollution, which is about 75% of the time in slow City type traffic.

As to the Fire Department, they have had the equipment and training to fight electrical/battery fires long before the Hybrid or Electric cars have been on the market.
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:00 PM   #21
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You really need to do your research before putting out what you believe rather than what is. People have been bagging on the Gas companies and automakers for years saying that they are in conspiracy with each other and that they are holding back the development of the Electric and hybrid cars to maintain their profits. Then they come out on the market and people complain the other way, like some of the comments you make.

The Hybrid cars are very economical and burn less gas which is the ultimate goal. We just took a driving trip around the US and covered about 7,000 miles total on the trip, using only a half the amount of gas we would have in our other car. We paid the burden for the price of the Hybrid over the regular Camry, not you or anyone else, there were no tax incentives. I think it cost us about $4000 more than the regular full gas Toyota. But a lot of people are using these type vehicles, which accumatively reduces the need dramatically for fossil fuels. I think most people buy them more for their contribution to a cleaner healthy environment than they do to save money. The way the Hybrid works, it does not create more pollution to charge the lithium battery, it simply does it while the gas engine is running, in certain modes, and captures the energy that is lost that regular cars could generate. So I don't know where you come up with that theory. Then when you are in full electric mode, you are creating zero pollution, which is about 75% of the time in slow City type traffic.

As to the Fire Department, they have had the equipment and training to fight electrical/battery fires long before the Hybrid or Electric cars have been on the market.
Mike You are right. I need to do more research as I said right from the top.

I don't know about your jurisdiction but in ours the government is giving tax breaks for the auto industry to build 'green' cars. Our government (and many others) have implemented a carbon tax which is probably being partially spent in that area.

We have a government that has mandated ethanol in all fuel sold in it's jurisdiction. The technology still takes more energy to produce the fuel than you can get out of it. The difference it made up in tax breaks.

Our son works for the fire department and is thrilled that they are getting new trucks (ahead of the duty cycle) because the current ones are not big enough to carry the extra equipment necessary for a hybrid car. Paid for by taxes. Certainly the regular batteries were accounted for but not the new higher capacity batteries.

Then comes the disposal of the extra batteries, etc when the time comes to change or the car is eventually disposed of. I expect extra facilities will be required as the current facility will likely be unable to cope with the new demand.

We could argue the merits of battery storage but I am assuming the batteries are not 100% efficient, therefore the energy loss has to be considered pollution, whether it be heat or exhaust that the vehicle used to produce the electricity. More to be considered that can be put in one paragraph.

I agree that we can help reduce the current pollution but how effective will the hybrid car be? I think we have to factor in all of the inputs to the car during its manufacture, life cycle and disposal to see what the real effect will be. I have done many types of benefit/cost over the years (not on a hybrid) and understand how "weasel" factors are used.

I would be less skeptical if the entire benefit/cost were laid out plainly for all to see.
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:35 PM   #22
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I have not done much research into "Hybrid Vehicles" and my comments will reflect that.

Using common sense I wonder about the net benefit of hybrid. First it will cost more to build a hybrid, the cost of generating electricity is still at the cost of pollution or fossil fuel consumption (we do not have hydro power here of any amount and are very unlikely to, jury is out on wind farms).

Then there is the disposal of said batteries and hybrid features.

Now all of the fire departments have to re-equip for electrical fire at any vehicle accident. In order to re-equip they require larger trucks and additional training.

Where is the benefit? Oh and by the way all of the tax breaks and incentives come from our pockets.

I did the following calculations before buying my hybrid. The additional cost were computed over the four year life of the loan vs the cost of a similar model car that wasn't a hybrid. Assuming $2.50 gallon for gas, just the drive to work alone would recoup the higher vehicle cost in 3.5 years. The thousands of miles of additional driving will all be pure savings, as will the work mileage after that time.

Of course gas has fluctuated, and my distance to work has increased, so it never really worked out as a purely mathematical equation, but the fact that the savings will be more than significant is without question.

Rounding out as best I can the savings will be at least three to four times the additional cost when I hit the 5 year mark in about three years from now. I'd eagerly buy one again.
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:39 PM   #23
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It has been my understanding for a while now, if you take out the politics, the most efficient econobox car is simply not a hybrid, if you count all the factors from start to finish.

The comparison I saw well documented considered the energy to make the small car and all its components. The cars were a small VW style diesel and a similar sized Prius style car.

When you consider the cost of the engine, batteries, and other components, the cost (and environmental impact) to move the vehicle over the 100,000 mile life span they considered reasonable, the cost (and environmental impact) of disposal, the cost or value of recoverable material available to be used in the next car, etc., there was an absolute and measurable advantage to the small modern diesel.

Lots of people buy the hype that hybrid is better. Lots of people honestly believe they are helping the world by buying this item or that because it makes them feel better.

Truth is, if we were really serious about this stuff, we would all have bicycles for commuting or maybe a Segway as our SUV. The reality is that we instead have bigger vehicles or even SUVs and drive them all the time because we want to. Then we tell others that our choice is superior to theirs because of this tiny consideration or another.

Don't get me wrong. I do not think we should have to ride bikes everywhere. I like that we live in a free society where we can make choices as to how much we want to conserve, and how much comfort we get to allow ourselves. I like that fact that we have the choice to get a big wasteful SUV to meet our comfort needs, and then power it with new technology that hides some of the actual costs of running that SUV by making others (taxes, government mandates, other indirect supplements) take on some of our costs. I just don't like hearing others preach to me about what they cannot or choose not to see.

I like to be comfortable when I drive. I would rather do it more efficiently than less efficiently, in pollution, environmental impact, and dollars. I just do not think that electricity is pollution free just because the exhaust is not at my own tailpipe, but far away. I know the impact that these heavy metal battery technologies have on the environment. Eventually more will know.

I still think we should take the best path for ourselves. We should do as much research as we feel comfortable doing, make the decisions we feel comfortable making. If another makes a decision that I would not make, I will not hold it against them. But neither will I take their opinion as superior to the facts I know to be true.

And I learn almost every day things I did not know before. Often times, what I learn is that something I knew as a fact, was indeed not a fact, or that the new technology has changed some facts...
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:44 PM   #24
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We experience the same thing with our Toyota Hybrid. Sometimes my wife will follow me in the MH and when she does, we get about 48 MPG average. It is rated at 39 highway/42 City, but it does get better gas mileage on the freeway if you drive it right. We regularly get about 42-44 MPG average.



The other day I saw a Pepsi Truck, big rig with a sleeper, pulling a regular size eighteen wheeler type trailer parked at a store parking lot. The cab of the truck was marked with "Hybrid" graphics. I couldn't find the driver to see how he liked it for power/gas mileage ect. But it made me wonder is the hybrid MH just around the corner. I think so, but they will be fairly expensive to purchase and most likely take many miles of savings to offset the cost.

I'm amazed at the amount of resistance people have against hybrids, with them making the most exaggerated and illogical arguments against them. While I was highly skeptical about the claims in favor of hybrids before owning one, I was at least willing to give it a try. I'm now firmly convinced that they deliver more than promised.

I also found that once you learn how to drive one to maximum efficiency that they regularly exceed the promised gas mileage. Plus the engine and motors combined give me an acceleration rate that is the envy of some modern "high performance" cars.

If there is a down side to them I haven't found it yet. Plus having a 110 volt outlet everywhere I go has been more than convenient.
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Old 04-09-2016, 01:47 PM   #25
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My opinion on the Hybrid bus' is that they are a heavily subsidised, green initiative vehciles, paid for by tax $.

Higher initial cost and little to no savings.

IMHO, the only proof of something working is when the private sector wants it.

I think that is a fair assessment. Having been a bus driver for over 20 years I can tell you that other than biodiesel I've yet to see a green innovation worth the cost and reduced power. It most certainly was not CNG buses.
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Old 04-09-2016, 03:12 PM   #26
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Freightliner offered this in 2009:
FCCC ecoFRED Ready For Production
And
40% Better Fuel Economy - HYBRID Class A?

The Naysayers are just wrong if the vehicle is used properly (garbage trucks are just abused IMHO and should be simple/stout as a hammer), but the extra cost is hard to sell on the dealer's lot...especially now that gas is under $3 most everywhere.

Our Hybrid Escape gets 30% better mileage with the same power as my Aunt's V6 version of the same car.
Going on 10 years of daily driving, the Hybrid drive has more than paid for the car in fuel savings

And, my work car, a Fusion Hybrid does even better...all-day mixed driving, but mostly freeway miles.

The Hybrid drive stores extra power when coasting/braking, providing it as/when wanted.
These are just facts.

And an added/hidden benefit is that the RV's generator would no longer be needed, with proper set-up. These Hybrid drive systems offer a 110VAC output through the inverter pack...that far exceeds the 3kW-12kW generators found in most RV's

To the OP, if someone wanted to make their own it is not a cheap modification, but could be done with a transmission swap (the new trans is the hybrid drive) hybrid controller added to the engine ECU and main drive battery pack.
Vendors like this are offering retrofit components:
http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsS...brid/index.htm
Or
Products

IMHO, this is the future of RV's and Trucking along with alternative fuels (natural gas and nitrogen).

Safe travels
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Old 04-09-2016, 03:38 PM   #27
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It is rated at 39 highway/42 City, but it does get better gas mileage on the freeway if you drive it right.

This does serve to underscore my point..... "....if you drive it right ...."

On the highway the hybrid car is using the gas engine by and large exclusively. You could simply equip a car with that same gas engine, minus all the hybrid components, and get the same highway mileage (assuming the same driver techniques of course).

On highway trips of hundreds of miles ( relatively flat terrain) there is not enough coasting, braking, or stopping to make any benefit of the electric components. I do like my hybrid car, but make no mistake, it gets worse MPG doing constant 65+ MPH than it does in city stop and go driving. Wind resistance alone is one reason. In city driving of 45MPH and less wind resistance is hardly a factor....but at 65+ MPH it definitely is.

I agree the electric assist can have other benefits...I.e extra power to climb mild grades for example....but just don't expect the technology to give a huge boost in fuel economy in steady state driving.
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Old 04-09-2016, 03:38 PM   #28
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I'm amazed at the amount of resistance people have against hybrids, with them making the most exaggerated and illogical arguments against them. While I was highly skeptical about the claims in favor of hybrids before owning one, I was at least willing to give it a try. I'm now firmly convinced that they deliver more than promised.

I also found that once you learn how to drive one to maximum efficiency that they regularly exceed the promised gas mileage. Plus the engine and motors combined give me an acceleration rate that is the envy of some modern "high performance" cars.

If there is a down side to them I haven't found it yet. Plus having a 110 volt outlet everywhere I go has been more than convenient.
X2...It is funny on this forum in general people who don't have something, a certain piece of equipment, or type of component, or have ever tried something become the "expert" on it even though they haven't used it, researched it, or even given it an honest try. I had a long email typed up earlier but we had a power failure so I lost it all.

Long story short is there are a lot of Hybrids out there using about half the gas of a regular car. I'm not a big Global Warming guy, and don't believe the sky is falling, but I think overall the use of crude oil is way down, which ahs created better air quality. And part of the reason for the glut of oil and lowering of gas prices. In July 2014 we were paying $4.39 a gallon for regular unleaded gas, now we are down to $2.69 a gallon, not cheap but almost half the cost. People have been screaming for years about the Oil companies holding back the development of alternative fuel sources, and now that they are available people are making up all kind of reasons they are no good. When gas goes back up to $4 a gallon again, and somehow they will find a way to do it, then everyone will be screaming again for new technology, and it will never be good enough....even though they have never tried it themselves, and truly believe or make up in their minds that it is adversely affecting the Environment. All one has to do is think back to your High School days(if you're old enough) and remember those "smog alerts" and the days where they canceled sporting events because it affected your health just breathing it in.

Gordon, I don't know where your son is a Fireman, but the rigs/Firemen in our City had the training and equipment to respond to electrical fires/hazmat situations for years before I retired and that was 4 years ago.
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