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Old 04-09-2016, 04:30 PM   #29
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I think we are wandering off topic a bit.

The question was about hybrid RV's..... I own a hybrid SUV and think it's great....however I make the point that an RV is not a great use case for the technology. I'm not against hybrid technology....but it is a solution to a particular problem....NOT a solution to ALL problems.

I believe in the proper tool for the job. When battery technology advances to the point that it's possible to build a "plug in" hybrid RV that can go 200+ miles on battery power alone, and then I simply recharge it at the campground, pending it's affordability (which is another issue) I would definitely buy one.

But to mate a hybrid system with the traditional gas or Diesel engine in a typical RV, I would see no practical benefit since 90% of the travel time is at highway speeds for long distances, and the batteries of today would only provide a mile or two of range on battery power.

Like was mentioned earlier, a city bus is a GREAT use case for the technology since it makes so many stops, and can make full use of regenerative braking every time it does so.
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Old 04-09-2016, 04:43 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by pasdad1 View Post
This does serve to underscore my point..... "....if you drive it right ...."

.
It really doesn't....What I meant by that was if you drive it at the going speed limits, or a few miles over....not at the usual 80+ MPH you see people doing, in any type of terrain. Or constantly speeding up/slowing down to pass the next guy in front of you. If you did that with a regular engine your MPG really drops even more significantly. On our 7000+ mile trip our freeway speeds varied from about 65- 75 MPH based on the posted speed limits, so we still averaged over 40 MPG for the whole trip, including a lot of mountain driving.

Also who knows if it will benefit an RV or not, that's why I wanted to talk to that Pepsi Driver to see how his hybrid truck handled power wise and if the MPG was significantly increased. They seem to be really improving the quality and ability of the hybrid engine set up, any improvement to a MH would probably be worth it depending on the original price.
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Old 04-09-2016, 05:23 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pasdad1 View Post
I think we are wandering off topic a bit...

I believe in the proper tool for the job. When battery technology advances to the point that it's possible to build a "plug in" hybrid RV

But to mate a hybrid system with the traditional gas or Diesel engine in a typical RV, I would see no practical benefit since 90% of the travel time is at highway speeds for long distances, and the batteries of today would only provide a mile or two of range on battery power.

Like was mentioned earlier, a city bus is a GREAT use case for the technology since it makes so many stops, and can make full use of regenerative braking every time it does so.
I disagree about the 90% comment...even on Florida flat roads the driver is changing speeds as they pass on/off ramps, truckers and those pesky distracted drivers.

And when the cruise control is set, the engine keeps the speed set by increasing/decreasing the throttle.

A Hybrid system allows use of an engine about 2/3 the size of a non-Hybrid vehicle for the same power. That smaller engine is able to run in the center of its power band (most efficient) with the electric drive picking up the slack for passing, pulling over-passes and similar routine peak power demands.

This smaller engine is more efficient and runs most efficiently in concert with the Hybrid Drive while providing the same power as a larger engine.

The scale (car, SUV, Truck, or RV) has no impact on this design...and a plug-in design (Nissan Leaf, Tesla) in a RV would require a battery too big to be cost-effective.

The problem with Hybrid drive is not efficiency, it is cost. The $10,000-$15,000 extra cost for a truck sized Hybrid (about 2x the extra cost in a car) and the pay-back point kills sales. Same reason there are 4 gas RV's sold to every Diesel RV in North America.

Safe travels
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Old 04-10-2016, 01:42 AM   #32
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Guys,

I agree with Pasdad1, "I think we are wandering off topic a bit."

Guys, I'm frustrated that nobody caught on to the original post that I never said the word(s) "batteries" of any kind. I said "...super capacitors..."

There is a big difference between the two.

Personally, I think that lithium ion batteries are too dangerous. I also believe that even regular batteries are way too heavy to be of any use, as there would be too many of them to do the job.

With that being said, that is exactly why I'm looking at super capacitors. And, I'm sure that that guy out in Iowa did too. Now is a good time for those that may have been or know of the manufacturing of capacitors to speak up and say if they are more harmful to the environment or not over the lithium batteries. My work career does not include this kind of manufacturing.

Please, reread the original post, rethink your answers, and respond in kind.

I apologize for being short with you all, but please read the post before you respond. Please.
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Old 04-10-2016, 05:34 AM   #33
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Sorry, I stopped reading seriously, after the cut in half, 90 MPG carb.
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:03 AM   #34
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Hybrid powered RV

I don't believe super capacitors have the power density that chemical batteries have. This super capacitor for starting large engines is only designed to start the engine once and then needs to be recharged. It works great in this case, since it can charge from a nearly dead chemical battery, and then provide the voltage and amps in one big burst to start a big Diesel engine.

So in that respect it could provide a "burst" of energy to the electrical motor of a hybrid power chassis but not sustain it long

To address the environmental concerns, I believe they contain no harmful chemicals of any kind. Mostly a metallic foil of some kind and an insulator sheet.
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:15 AM   #35
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Old 04-10-2016, 07:46 AM   #36
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Old 04-10-2016, 09:07 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BandSA View Post
Guys,

I agree with Pasdad1, "I think we are wandering off topic a bit."

Guys, I'm frustrated that nobody caught on to the original post that I never said the word(s) "batteries" of any kind. I said "...super capacitors..."

There is a big difference between the two.

Personally, I think that lithium ion batteries are too dangerous. I also believe that even regular batteries are way too heavy to be of any use, as there would be too many of them to do the job.

With that being said, that is exactly why I'm looking at super capacitors. And, I'm sure that that guy out in Iowa did too. Now is a good time for those that may have been or know of the manufacturing of capacitors to speak up and say if they are more harmful to the environment or not over the lithium batteries. My work career does not include this kind of manufacturing.

Please, reread the original post, rethink your answers, and respond in kind.

I apologize for being short with you all, but please read the post before you respond. Please.

Why didn't you just ask about capacitors then, Geesh?

I did reread your post. It appears to me that your main question is about the possibility of a hybrid RV?

"Have been kicking around a idea that a friend and I were discussing a while back...a hybrid powered motorhome."

You mention super capacitors only in passing:

"He also did a Hummer (H1) that he put super capacitors under the back seat, turbine generator, and got 60 mpg. That beats a Prius!"

The only questions you actually ask in you original post were these:

"Is it feasible, possible to do something like this? I'm thinking of what kind of mileage that would give to your coaches, our trucks, etc...

I know up front that it will cost some big amount, but what size of electric motor would be required? "

On top of that, your title is:

"Hybrid powered RV"

Why you getting all upset at us for answering your question? I took the capacitor stuff about as serious as the carburetor cut in half.

You might get better responses if you start a new post with the title of: "Is it possible to power an RV with capacitors and a turbine generator?"
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Old 04-10-2016, 10:27 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BandSA View Post
Guys,

I agree with Pasdad1, "I think we are wandering off topic a bit."

Guys, I'm frustrated that nobody caught on to the original post that I never said the word(s) "batteries" of any kind. I said "...super capacitors..."

There is a big difference between the two.

Personally, I think that lithium ion batteries are too dangerous. I also believe that even regular batteries are way too heavy to be of any use, as there would be too many of them to do the job.

With that being said, that is exactly why I'm looking at super capacitors. And, I'm sure that that guy out in Iowa did too. Now is a good time for those that may have been or know of the manufacturing of capacitors to speak up and say if they are more harmful to the environment or not over the lithium batteries. My work career does not include this kind of manufacturing.

Please, reread the original post, rethink your answers, and respond in kind.

I apologize for being short with you all, but please read the post before you respond. Please.
Quote:
He also did a Hummer (H1) that he put super capacitors under the back seat...
If capacitors in a Hybrid Drive over batteries was ever your original question, it was lost in the OP.

Capacitors can do many things...including storage of power. But, capacitors cannot provide even distribution of power over long periods of time (like needed in a Hybrid Drive system).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor

Safe travels
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Old 04-10-2016, 11:38 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scarab0088 View Post





If capacitors in a Hybrid Drive over batteries was ever your original question, it was lost in the OP.

Capacitors can do many things...including storage of power. But, capacitors cannot provide even distribution of power over long periods of time (like needed in a Hybrid Drive system).
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor

Safe travels

Also super compositors are about ten times the size as a battery for the same stored charge. Seems like it would require an awful lot of space even if it could somehow be made to discharge slowly enough to power electric drive motors.

Other than for a quick blast of power to the RV's engine starter motor, I personally can't think of another RV application. However I'm sure that younger and more creative minds than mine will find ingenious uses for them over time.
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Old 04-10-2016, 12:32 PM   #40
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It has been my understanding for a while now, if you take out the politics, the most efficient econobox car is simply not a hybrid, if you count all the factors from start to finish.

The comparison I saw well documented considered the energy to make the small car and all its components. The cars were a small VW style diesel and a similar sized Prius style car.

When you consider the cost of the engine, batteries, and other components, the cost (and environmental impact) to move the vehicle over the 100,000 mile life span they considered reasonable, the cost (and environmental impact) of disposal, the cost or value of recoverable material available to be used in the next car, etc., there was an absolute and measurable advantage to the small modern diesel.

Lots of people buy the hype that hybrid is better. Lots of people honestly believe they are helping the world by buying this item or that because it makes them feel better.

Truth is, if we were really serious about this stuff, we would all have bicycles for commuting or maybe a Segway as our SUV. The reality is that we instead have bigger vehicles or even SUVs and drive them all the time because we want to. Then we tell others that our choice is superior to theirs because of this tiny consideration or another.

Don't get me wrong. I do not think we should have to ride bikes everywhere. I like that we live in a free society where we can make choices as to how much we want to conserve, and how much comfort we get to allow ourselves. I like that fact that we have the choice to get a big wasteful SUV to meet our comfort needs, and then power it with new technology that hides some of the actual costs of running that SUV by making others (taxes, government mandates, other indirect supplements) take on some of our costs. I just don't like hearing others preach to me about what they cannot or choose not to see.

I like to be comfortable when I drive. I would rather do it more efficiently than less efficiently, in pollution, environmental impact, and dollars. I just do not think that electricity is pollution free just because the exhaust is not at my own tailpipe, but far away. I know the impact that these heavy metal battery technologies have on the environment. Eventually more will know.

I still think we should take the best path for ourselves. We should do as much research as we feel comfortable doing, make the decisions we feel comfortable making. If another makes a decision that I would not make, I will not hold it against them. But neither will I take their opinion as superior to the facts I know to be true.

And I learn almost every day things I did not know before. Often times, what I learn is that something I knew as a fact, was indeed not a fact, or that the new technology has changed some facts...
Thank you Karl and Gordon for the voice of reason.
My only comment to yours is, IMHO, the only GREEN in these projects is the GreenBacks in subsidies and the Green going into some government officials pocket.
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Old 04-10-2016, 02:40 PM   #41
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Old 04-10-2016, 04:58 PM   #42
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Hi Bruce,

No, I'm not going to jump on you because you raised this topic; it's certainly worth considering. The local city buses here do have hybrid power plants, but I don't know how well they work or if they re well liked. From what I can tell, they use turbine engines to charge the batteries, and then use typical hybrid techniques for regenerative braking, etc.

The advantage of the turbines is that they are very efficient when running at constant speeds, which is a great application for the generators. I don't know what kind of batteries they use, but that is really not the most important factor.

The biggest problem with getting super mileage from a coach is, as others have mentioned, that the big old box moving through the air takes POWER! Using hybrid technology for regeneration and all that stuff is great, and might get your mileage from 8 all the way up to 10 (25% improvement!), but that's not enough to get anyone excited.

To get that 30,000 lb. thing up to 16 MPG you would have to get frontal area down to the size of a minivan. Hard to do............

I have given thought to supercaps, and keep wishing that the practical hardware would become available so that we could use it for something useful.

The only way that something like that could work is if we had a free (or very cheap) way to charge the storage banks and then get to another place for a recharge before we run down, kinda like golf carts.

I mentioned that moving the coach through the air takes power. You just multiply power times TIME to get energy, and that's what fuel mileage is all about.

No, I'm not going to buy stock in a supercap powered motor home, but we all wish there were a better way.

Tom
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