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Old 06-07-2006, 07:36 AM   #15
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Hi Mark, Good thaught. I picked up our unit at Freightliner Las Vegas and they said that the cooling system is fine. We did a test drive with no tow car up a moderate grade north of Las Vegas. We drove with the mode on so the unit was in 5th gear all the way and the unit did not get hot. The servie Manager said they could not chase a problem on warranty unless they could find something wrong.

The issue as I see it now is centering back on the gauges.

I stopped and talked to Cummins in Vegas and confirmed with them that the engine is supposed to throw a trouble code and log on the engine computer if the engine get up to 208 degrees. My gauges have registered temps higher than that many times. Cummins says they run a test on their dyno to get the engine hot. They will monitor the engine with a manual temp guage, the engine computer and compare them to the gauges and document readings. The caveat is that if they don't find anything wrong with the engine stuff I have to pay for the test. Cummins say 90% of time the oem gauages are not reading correctly.
I'm going to have the test done to find some closer to this issue.
It seems that freightliner just doesn't have a way to diagnose the problem.
I'm going to talk to the corporate office about it.
I was treated well at Freightliner but the issue was left with a comment that if I can bring them proof that there is something wrong, they will look at it as a warranty issue.
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Old 06-07-2006, 09:01 AM   #16
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Just an update. Freightliner says that their light comes on at 220 and that the engine throws a code at 225. I have never been that hot. Double checking with Cummins and the service manager is agreeing with the Freightliner folks.
Guess it just depends who you talk too.

For peace of mind the Cummins guy recommended the dyno test to find out what the readings really are.
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Old 06-07-2006, 11:44 AM   #17
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This is clearly a wild thought. I bought the VMSpc package and run it when we travel. It displays almost anything that the engine can generate in the way of both gauge information and fault codes. I admit that VMSpc is also going to be wrong if the problem with the gauge is in the sending unit for it.

Another feature of VMSpc is that it will create a history file on demand of any gauge. If started your engine and warmed it to operating temperature then turned on VMSpc's history file for your engine temperature gauge while you drove it, you might get some valuable information. In addition, my ISB also provides an intake manifold temperature. I would guess that if the engine is overheating, the intake manifold would also respond. The reason that I mention it is that it is very unlikely that you have two different sensors following the same kind of failure curve, assuming that the failure is in the display of the information.

I bought VMSpc for exactly the problem that you are having. Typically, most industries and service groups can do very well with solid failures but really struggle with any problem that is intermittent or for which the failure conditions cannot easily be determined. I used to service some of the largest mainframe computers that are commerically available and was very surprised many times when a problem that I thought was a rare fluke turned out to be very predictable once you knew the conditions to bring it on.

VMSpc might be a better long term investment than even running the dyno test. It certainly would be with you long after that dyno test is finished. If I were a betting man, I'd bet you that the dyno comes back with what we called an "NTF" (not trouble found). But maybe that is just cynical me.
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Old 06-07-2006, 12:02 PM   #18
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I will look into it.
Thanks
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Old 06-07-2006, 07:51 PM   #19
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Hi All,

It occurs to me that there is only one temperature sensor for the engine. The engine computer communicates with the transmission and chassis computers (and VMSps) over a CAN Bus using a communications protocol called J1939. The chassis computer controls the instrument panel based on the information passed to it by the engine and the transmission. Just as RPM is displayed, if the panel indicates high temperatures, it's only reporting the data sent to it by the engine. For those interested, the panel gauges are driven by stepper motors. VMSpc (I have the CAT Pocket Tech) is the way to read the data that's passed around the Bus and a log file of any or all monitored data should be proof enough for Cummins or Freightliner to take action on.

I don't know when J1939 came into common use but it seems almost universal in the automotive industry. There are several other protocols out there though and some engines, transmissions, and chassis computers can use more than one. I believe VMSpc can auto detect the protocol, maybe chasfm11 or John Canfield can answer that question since they have one and I don't.

If we have an Engine Design Engineer in our ranks, perhaps they will expand on this subject as well as answer the question about heat dissipation per HP for engines in general and what the rule of thumb is for radiator sizing.
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Old 06-15-2006, 07:02 AM   #20
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Just an update: I have decided to install two 12 volt pusher fans on the radiator. They put out about 2000 cfm. each and are controled by a temperture sensor which is programable. Spal is the fan maker.
I still plan on having a dyno test and compare the cooling with 12 volt fans connected and disconneted to see if I'm going to gain any cool effect.
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Old 06-15-2006, 08:32 AM   #21
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I can speak for the Cummins ISB motor. I have had no problems at all pulling grades, and I always have my toad with me. I know for a fact that the ISB does not use an EGR system on their motors, not until the 07' model year anyway. In 07' it will be added to be compliant with the new emmissions standards.

I will sometimes get into 3rd when pulling a steep long grade, but that is for power not heat. The fans are not a bad idea, as cooler is always better for a diesel on hot days. However, I bet that the ultimate problem will be with a gauge or a sender. Sarge
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Old 06-15-2006, 05:27 PM   #22
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Yes cool is good. I looked at a new Tour the other day and saw they had the rear radiator and the air conditioning was located on the side with a 12 volt fan. The Horizon has the air and radiator stacked together on the side. I do not use the air on grades.
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