Go Back   iRV2 Forums > MOTORHOME FORUMS > MH-General Discussions & Problems
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-31-2007, 02:52 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Franklin, Michigan
Posts: 1,305
The topic of how a coach's power is distributed and the how the different sets of batteries are charged has been well documented here. As I endeavor to gain a complete understanding a couple of questions/uncertainties came up.

1. However AC power is generated (shore, genset, Inverter), its source is through the Transfer switch then to the main A/C breaker panel which is located in my bathroom. Do I have this right?

If this is true, the inverter will power everything except air conditioning. How does the system know to disconnect the air conditioning when inverting? There must be something between the transfer switch and the breaker panel. I do have an Energy Management System which drops items off when on 20/30 amps.

However, not all coaches have an EMS but, also will not let Air Conditioing run when on inverter.


2. The 12v power is sourced through the Inverter/Converter whether it is coming from the batteries directly or converted from AC power. 12v power goes to the 12v fuse box, also located in my bathroom next to the AC breaker box. Do I have this right?



3. The 12v fuses in my bathroom are all items that operate off of the house batteries. However, in the left front compartment there are a bunch of 12v fuses as well. They are almost all for chassis items. However, there appear to be some that are for the house, slideouts being one of them. Any ideas? Is this for redundancy? or perhaps the engine running overide for slidouts?
__________________

__________________
Scott Crompton
Newmar TBD
Sue (DW):Celia 16, Alec 15, Bella (Greyhound), Isis (Abyssinian)
JavaJelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 12-31-2007, 02:52 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Franklin, Michigan
Posts: 1,305
The topic of how a coach's power is distributed and the how the different sets of batteries are charged has been well documented here. As I endeavor to gain a complete understanding a couple of questions/uncertainties came up.

1. However AC power is generated (shore, genset, Inverter), its source is through the Transfer switch then to the main A/C breaker panel which is located in my bathroom. Do I have this right?

If this is true, the inverter will power everything except air conditioning. How does the system know to disconnect the air conditioning when inverting? There must be something between the transfer switch and the breaker panel. I do have an Energy Management System which drops items off when on 20/30 amps.

However, not all coaches have an EMS but, also will not let Air Conditioing run when on inverter.


2. The 12v power is sourced through the Inverter/Converter whether it is coming from the batteries directly or converted from AC power. 12v power goes to the 12v fuse box, also located in my bathroom next to the AC breaker box. Do I have this right?



3. The 12v fuses in my bathroom are all items that operate off of the house batteries. However, in the left front compartment there are a bunch of 12v fuses as well. They are almost all for chassis items. However, there appear to be some that are for the house, slideouts being one of them. Any ideas? Is this for redundancy? or perhaps the engine running overide for slidouts?
__________________

__________________
Scott Crompton
Newmar TBD
Sue (DW):Celia 16, Alec 15, Bella (Greyhound), Isis (Abyssinian)
JavaJelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 04:24 AM   #3
Community Administrator
 
Route 66's Avatar


 
Newmar Owners Club
Retired Fire Service RVer's
Spartan Chassis
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Newark, DE
Posts: 25,599
I'm not sure that this topic is strictly Newmar related, as each manufacturer may do things a little different, so I'll link it to the Newmar forum.

Here's what I think I know.

1. The inverter does not go thru the transfer switch. Only shore and generator power do.

On my coach the is a separate breaker panel, next to the main panel, for the inverter. There is no connection between the 2 panels.

The inverter breakers are wired to the outlets/appliances to be powered by the inverter.

The inverter has circuitry to prevent inverting if shore/generator power is detected.

I do not have the Newmar EMS.

2. I don't think the 12v power goes thru the inverter/charger, but that the batteries and inverter/charger are connected in parallel.

3. I don't think there is any redundancy in the fusing, but the fuse locations are more for manufacturing convenience, or interaction with other systems.
__________________
Adios, Dirk - '84 Real Lite Truck Camper, '86 Wilderness Cimarron TT, previously 4 years as a fulltimer in a '07 DSDP

Route 66 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 06:37 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
RVDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,339
With an inverter/CHARGER setup like you have there is no CONVERTER. Hence, all 12vDC comes from battery.
__________________
2007 and 7/8ths Newmar Essex 4502
RVDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 07:36 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Pusherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 2,544
I think Dirk has it right. My coach has 2 panels, one which is powered by the transfer switch or inverter, and one which is powered solely by the transfer switch (this is the panel which houses the air conditioning breakers, etc. which are not powered by the inverter).

Transfer switch is powered by either shore power or generator only. Not the inverter.

Inverter senses when power is on, and does not provide 'inverted' power.
__________________
Don
'07 Winnebago Journey 34H - CAT C7, Koni's, MCU's, SS Bell Crank, Safe-T-Plus
'07 HHR Toad, SMI AFO, Blue OX
Pusherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 10:25 AM   #6
Senior Member
 
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Franklin, Michigan
Posts: 1,305
Thanks for the insight and patience as I go down the path to becoming one w/my coach.

This makes sense when I look at what breakers are in the second panel. I had thought it was a subpanel up to now just assuming they ran out of space in the first box.

Larger box has breakers for:
3 Air Conditioners
Tank Heat Pads
Referigerator - Outlet behind fridge for AC and Ice maker
Block Heater
Freezer (for outlet in first bay)
Inverter - for charging function (6 amp draw for bulk I believe)
Water heater (I assume the electric element on HydroHot)
Washer Dryer


These all make sense but, I now realize that the fridge will not run on AC using the inverter even if you force the mode to AC. I did not realize this but, it makes sense as there is a 6 amp pull. Fridge does not error out as it is just waiting for AC. Also, the microwave doesn't have a propane alternative.


Second Panel:
Appliance - for outlets throughout coach including audio/video components
Microwave
Lights - 110 lights only obviously


Question 1:
If the second panel is powered from the inverter, how does power get to that box from shore or genset? Does the feed for that panel go through the inverter and the inverter senses when AC is present and lets power pass through?

The breaker on the main panel for the inverter is 30 amp. The main for the second (inverter) panel is also 30 amp.

Follow up Question: 30 amps at 120v = 3600 watts. My inverter is rated for either 1,800 or 2,000 watts or around 16 amps. This 30 amp breaker doesn't seem to do much as the inverter will blow first.

Question 2:
I don't have the outside freezer but, if the outlet in the first bay is not on the inverter how does that freezer keep food frozen while not on shore or genset? Or does that freezer have a 12v and 120v hookup?

Q3:
The distinction was made b/w charger and converter but, aren't all chargers just converters w/one purpose?
__________________
Scott Crompton
Newmar TBD
Sue (DW):Celia 16, Alec 15, Bella (Greyhound), Isis (Abyssinian)
JavaJelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 11:02 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
RVDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,339
See answers imbedded below.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JavaJelly:
Question 1:
If the second panel is powered from the inverter, how does power get to that box from shore or genset? Does the feed for that panel go through the inverter and the inverter senses when AC is present and lets power pass through?
****YES****

Follow up Question: 30 amps at 120v = 3600 watts. My inverter is rated for either 1,800 or 2,000 watts or around 16 amps. This 30 amp breaker doesn't seem to do much as the inverter will blow first.
****BUT, while on shore you can draw much more, hence the 30amp breaker to protect all those outlets and microwave while on shore. Remember, while on shore/genset the inverter is NOT inverting, it passes 120vAC thru up to 30ampsAC-the breaker limit. However, the charger side can be charging and drawing up to around 10ampAC. Inverter will not blow up if you draw more than max rated wattage while it is INVERTING as it will simply shut down if overloaded WHILE inverting.****


Question 2:
I don't have the outside freezer but, if the outlet in the first bay is not on the inverter how does that freezer keep food frozen while not on shore or genset? Or does that freezer have a 12v and 120v hookup?
****I'll bet your cargo bay outlet is on the inverter panel. That way the freezer there runs off inverter control****


Q3:
The distinction was made b/w charger and converter but, aren't all chargers just converters w/one purpose?
****NO a CONVERTER will only produce basic 12vDC. a CHARGER will produce (in our inverter setups) a multi-stage output designed specifically to charge batteries. The BULK-ABSORB-FLOAT charging stages all are done at different voltages between about 12.5vDC and about 14vDC and are very strictly controlled for these specific volt/amp outputs - and even under battery temp control if you have that feature too - to maximize charging.*** </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
__________________
2007 and 7/8ths Newmar Essex 4502
RVDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 11:05 AM   #8
Senior Member
 
Pusherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Rochester NY
Posts: 2,544
Scott,

You answered some of your questions above! The first is that there is a circuit breaker in your large panel which is labeled 'inverter'. This is the power source TO the inverter/charger.

There is a transfer switch within the inverter, and when shore/generator power is sensed, the transfer switch defeats the inverter, sending the power back to your second panel which powers your outlets and microwave. When there is no shore/generator power and the inverter is on, this is the path which now powers your small electrical panel.

I believe why your inverter/charger circuit breaker is 30A is because this is what is routed thru the transfer switch, and back to your secondary panel when the inverter is not operating. When the inverter is operating, it is only sending back 2000 watts, not the 3600 watts which would normally flow thru the 30A power circuit.

Q2 - dunno

Q3 - A converter converts 110V to 12V to run your interier lights, etc. The charger obvioulsly charges the house batteries. And the inverter converts 12V to 110V (Not sure if this answered Q3 or not).
__________________
Don
'07 Winnebago Journey 34H - CAT C7, Koni's, MCU's, SS Bell Crank, Safe-T-Plus
'07 HHR Toad, SMI AFO, Blue OX
Pusherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 11:21 AM   #9
Community Administrator
 
Route 66's Avatar


 
Newmar Owners Club
Retired Fire Service RVer's
Spartan Chassis
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Newark, DE
Posts: 25,599
Sorry, you've reached your question limit.

1. There is a 30 amp breaker in the main panel that feeds the inverter, and a 30 amp breaker on the inverter panel that is the output of the inverter.

CLICK HERE and look at page 25.

In the case of AC overload, according to the Operation Guide, the inverter will shut down to protect itself and display a warning message of "Too many AC loads". You only have 17 amps output.

2. The freezer is AC/DC.

3. Converter/chargers make poor chargers. Inverters with their 3 stage chargers are much better.
__________________
Adios, Dirk - '84 Real Lite Truck Camper, '86 Wilderness Cimarron TT, previously 4 years as a fulltimer in a '07 DSDP

Route 66 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 11:22 AM   #10
Senior Member
 
RVDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,339
A little more CONVERTER vs CHARGER follow up.
Units with CONVERTER setups also use that basic 12vDC output to charge. However, because this is not a multi-stage or controlled charge that is why you would NEVER leave a CONVERTER equipped rig plugged in during storage - it will always deliver a constant charge to the batteries and eventually boil them out.
On the other hand, the multi-stage charger setups typical of the inverter/chargers CAN be left plugged in as they will sense the batteries need for charging and only provide the appropriate charge stage when the battery needs it. However, an occasional draw-down cycling of the batteries is always a good practice.
__________________
2007 and 7/8ths Newmar Essex 4502
RVDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 11:44 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
Latitude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Gilford,Ontario
Posts: 1,050
'Very' Informative, educational topic. Thanks to JavaJelly for starting it and to all who replyed, I have learned a lot!!!

Rick
__________________
'05 Kountry Star 3910 ISC 330 Cummins '08 Jeep Wrangler Four Door Blue Ox
Latitude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 11:49 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Franklin, Michigan
Posts: 1,305
Thanks much gentlemen,

Dirk - page 25 of installation manual is great. It doesn't comprehend the BIRD that we beat to death in an earlier post but, it clears things up.

Also, my auto gen start is not Xantrex. Newmar used a Magnum instead which I have never been able to get a straight answer on. My Xantrex control panel does have the AGS controls in its menu system. It would have been nice to have it integrated but, it works fine.

Jeff - thanks much for the detail. If I get it, essentially converters can't be 3 stage chargers. Having an inverter/charger is an upgrade from an inverter/converter. I know the topic of 3 stage chargers has been well covered in this forum.
__________________
Scott Crompton
Newmar TBD
Sue (DW):Celia 16, Alec 15, Bella (Greyhound), Isis (Abyssinian)
JavaJelly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 12:09 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
RVDude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,339
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JavaJelly:
...the BIRD that we beat to death in an earlier post... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's make it very clear that NO ANIMALS were harmed in this, or any other posting!

We are just too nice a bunch of folks...

Happy New Year!!!!
__________________
2007 and 7/8ths Newmar Essex 4502
RVDude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2007, 01:48 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Latitude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Gilford,Ontario
Posts: 1,050
RV Dude "occasional draw down of batteries"

I am guessing this is disconnecting shorepower to let batteries draw down so they can be charged back up????
I do not have anything on in coach would there be enough load to draw batteries down if I just unplugged for a few days???

Thanks Rick
__________________

__________________
'05 Kountry Star 3910 ISC 330 Cummins '08 Jeep Wrangler Four Door Blue Ox
Latitude is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Transfer Switch newk72 National RV Owner's Forum 5 10-22-2008 07:54 AM
Transfer switch or Inverter??? cajunjohn Alpine Coach Owner's Forum 5 07-09-2008 12:45 PM
Our "Go Power" Inverter, Converter, Transfer Switch install radar Gear and Product Discussions 2 02-03-2008 04:44 PM
Transfer switch or Inverter??? RV Systems & Appliances 5 12-31-1969 07:00 PM
Q's about Transfer Switch & Inverter Newmar Owner's Forum 28 12-31-1969 07:00 PM

» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.