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Old 07-08-2012, 06:16 AM   #71
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Because there will always be people who break laws... we shouldn't have laws?

Rick
By prohibiting items for which there is strong demand, you move the economy for those items to black markets, where they can't use laws to settle disputes (they use guns instead), and there is NO regulation to make sure the items are manufactured and transported safely and consistently. Over time, we'll likely find that the problems associated with the black markets far exceed the problems legal and regulated fireworks would ever have caused.
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:23 AM   #72
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Ricko,

The $10 fine amount was of course ficticious and your $500 would be more punitive and perhaps do a better job of reducing the use of then illegal fireworks. I'm only suggesting that regardless of the legality one is still responsible for their actions. The fact that say fireworks are illegal MAY make it easier to WIN in a damages case.

I think it would be fine to have local laws that ban certain types of fireworks and under certain conditions. It would be fine to ban rockets, roman candles inside city limits or all fireworks must be used and remain on your property. Banning any kind of burning to include fireworks during a dry spell would be fine. If I live in the country with no neighbors (and there is no dry spell) then leave me alone. I feel there are common sense laws or regs that can be put in place to reduce the potential damage to others short of out right bans.

The fact that I point a bottle rocket at my brother is not justification for banning bottle rockets.
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:39 AM   #73
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IMO, a law that prevent idiots with fireworks causing hundreds of thousands of dollars-worth of property damage is justifiable.
Laws don't prevent idiots from being idiots, ever. Two things that seem to go hand in hand are idiocy and tenacity.
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:39 AM   #74
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Yes, really. We don't need more laws to "prevent" law abiding citizens from anything, that is not our governments role nor should we let it chip away at any more of our freedoms, nor does it work! People should take responsibility for their actions and be accountable for the consequences of their "idiotic things".
Let's say a person sets off fireworks near my 83 year old mothers small home and somehow the house catches on fire. She is not to fast on her feet and can't get out of the house and gets seriously burned or perhaps dies. What happens to the person that set off the fireworks? What if the authorities can't find out who caused the accident? Do you say, "oh well, it was an accident?"

Personally I don't see making more laws a valid idea. However, I do think that some of the laws on the books need to be rewritten. The court system is a joke and the American penal system is a bigger joke.

Making people responsible and accountable is a huge task. Education and better parenting could be a start, but I think that parenting skills have diminished over the years. As for education, well you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

I don't know what the solution is. Please tell us your solution to make people more responsible and accountable for their actions?
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:53 AM   #75
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Thanks for the response to one of my questions wildtoad. I thought I asked a number of good ones which have been ignored for some reason.

In response to your question about how much a theoretical fine should be for setting off a bottle rocket... your suggestion of $10 or $20 is off by at least an order of magnitude IMO. Don't pass laws with no teeth. Make the fine >$500. Something that says, "don't do this".

I'm not trying to be obstinate here, I'm really trying to understand an opposing point of view posted by those who seem to favor some degree of lesser "regulation" than we have now... and, to be fair, see much future "regulation" as a restriction of our freedoms.

I'm all for freedom, accountability and common sense. Help me understand how far folks who hold your point of view would like to see that carried. Where should the line be drawn between reliance on common sense and accountability... and where (if anywhere?) we should have laws?

If we don't have laws, are we all left on our own to hire lawyers and begin civil litigation... starting from scratch... and have to prove that the individual (or company) which harmed us just "didn't do the right thing"?

Frank points out the big problem with this approach and also refutes your statement that whether or not something is illegal is "insignificant":



If the perp had been cited/convicted of a crime causing this loss, it becomes much more straightforward to get a judgement.

Many of those opposed to "regulations/laws" in this discussion have indicated that laws are no "cure" for the problem because there will always be those who break the law. I don't think anyone suggested that laws were a "cure" ...and this is a red herring IMO. It's quite easy to criticize actions taken to address a problem... the challenge is to offer a better solution. So far, all I've heard is that we should all do a better job of raising our children and over a number of generations things will get better. Is that really it?

Rick
RickO,

I am in your camp on this one. But even with a hefty fine sometimes you can't get blood out of a turnip. Perhaps a little jail time. For the normal law abiding citizen spending a night or two in the slammer might be enough to wake them up. On the other hand, jail might be a second home to some.

IMO child raising has become more of an issue in these faster moving times. I know I am getting old but it sure seems like it was a heck of a lot easier growing up in the 50's and 60's than it is today. God bless those of you who are still raising children.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:29 AM   #76
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Randco, let's say it was the kids lit a paper bag of dog droppings instead....
And the outcome is called involuntary manslaughter.

Again in my opinion it comes down to responsibility, if I did something, like the paper bag, when I was I kid and my father found out, well today they would call it child abuse and lock him up. Not that I would be permanently damaged but it would not happen again.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:37 AM   #77
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Randco, let's say it was the kids lit a paper bag of dog droppings instead....
And the outcome is called involuntary manslaughter.

Again in my opinion it comes down to responsibility, if I did something, like the paper bag, when I was I kid and my father found out, well today they would call it child abuse and lock him up. Not that I would be permanently damaged but it would not happen again.
Amen! My folks would be in jail also.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:38 AM   #78
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If I got caught for everything I did, I'd probably still be in jail.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:43 AM   #79
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If I got caught for everything I did, I'd probably still be in jail.
If I got caught for everything I did as a kid, my folks would be in Jail and I'd be dead! Some of those whippings took a toll.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:46 AM   #80
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Never got whipped wooped beat. My dad tried to take away my keys for something I didn't do. He lost.
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Old 07-08-2012, 07:56 AM   #81
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Dad was fine, MOM was the disciplinarian. She learned from her Father- German/Sweed. Anything within reach was fair game. Wire hanger, extension cord, 2x4, shovel,.
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:16 AM   #82
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I tend to believe that all too often in our society we tend to over-react and demand more laws be passed. In the end, IMHO, this is counter-productive because all too often we end up just piling more laws about a certain activity on top of other laws that are already being ignored. We had a saying in the military, never give an order that you know will be ignored. It just dilutes the respect for other laws/orders.

For example, the discussion about fines for bottle rockets. Let's say it does go up to about $500. Have you seen signs on the highway showing the cost of the fines for littering? How often do you see litter in the proximity of such signs?

If there is anything to be done about this in the legal system, I would welcome action to make it easier to enforce the personal responsibility when someone does something stupid. But, I fear that in our present society it is all too often someone else's fault that the RV burned up. After all, if Bic hadn't made that lighter, I wouldn't have been able to light the firework in the first place.
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:41 AM   #83
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Let's not forget there are over 300 million people, that all want to be free to do what they want, when they want, where, how, etc.. By mid century that number is expected to double. Imagine the impact if half want to do something, and the other half dosen,t want them to. We have to control the herd, or it will get out of control !!!!
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:09 AM   #84
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Fireworks have been illegal in the great state of New York for years. That doesn't slow down the use of them much though. Anyone that has a car and enough gas to drive to Pennsylvania can buy some and for some unknown reason the fireworks stores are right over the state line.

On Independence Day (AKA 4th of July) the police could not even come close to stopping the home fireworks displays in our neighborhood alone. One of our dogs is very afraid of them so DW asked our neighbor two doors down that sets off a bunch every 4th if he could please text her before they get going so we could put him in the bedroom and turn up the TV so it wasn't so bad. You can guess that he was way to busy to bother with that. They must also have been too busy to pick up all the crap that fell all over the place from them too.

My point is that the irresponsible bungholes are going to do whatever they want and unless LEOs can round them all up and lock them all up there isn't much point to the laws. So now I think I will get drunk, drive around in my car while shooting fireworks out the window and talk on my cell phone
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