The result of idiots and illegal fireworks

[Dunner]

Originally Posted by gray ghost

Have you seen signs on the highway showing the cost of the fines for littering? How often do you see litter in the proximity of such signs?

That reminds me of my Army days in the mid 60s. It was funny to see the amount of litter within a mile of a liquor store. The further you got from one, the less bottle caps and trash there was.

[Midniteoyl]

Originally Posted by frankdamp

..... The big problem with "sue the bastards" is that doing so is ludicroously expensive, particularly if you can't find a lawyer who will work on a "no win, no fee" basis. You have a $40,000 loss, you win in court, you have to pay the lawyer $15K and the deadbeat that lost never pays you back, so you're out the original damage and another $15k besides.

Even if its against the law, you STILL MUST SUE to get your money back for repairs. The law will only impose a fine, which does nothing to help you...

[Midniteoyl]

Originally Posted by Martino78

That's great you and your family do that. I don't know where the idea of making fireworks illegal came from. I think people just need to follow the law when a burn ban is in place. Especially in places like Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, etc.

Now this I agree with.. I did not have the customary fireworks display this year precisely because there was a burn ban and it was waayyy too dry.. If my field went up in blaze, it would have taken far more than the local volunteers to put it out...

But, that is just common sense.. No law required.


edit: BTW, even with the Burn Ban, it was still legal to shoot fireworks.. It was my choice not to.

[Midniteoyl]

Originally Posted by Tom3205

Let's not forget there are over 300 million people, that all want to be free to do what they want, when they want, where, how, etc.. By mid century that number is expected to double. Imagine the impact if half want to do something, and the other half dosen,t want them to. We have to control the herd, or it will get out of control !!!!

What????

[Barbaraok]

Originally Posted by Mr_D

No law can cure stupidity or lawlessness.

A law breaker will still be a law breaker no matter how many laws are passed.

Aren't there laws against drunk driving, yet every day people get killed by drunk drivers, same with anything. Did prohibition work to eliminate liquor and killing over it's control?

So why have any laws at all? Lets just let everyone 'do their thing'.

Barb

[randco]

Originally Posted by BCooke

Randco, let's say it was the kids lit a paper bag of dog droppings instead....
And the outcome is called involuntary manslaughter.

Again in my opinion it comes down to responsibility, if I did something, like the paper bag, when I was I kid and my father found out, well today they would call it child abuse and lock him up. Not that I would be permanently damaged but it would not happen again.

First kids playing the flaming suprise weren't raised right.

How would [b]you[/] feel if you were the one that lit the bag and that created the involuntary manslaughter and your father or the law never caught you? Would you turn yourself in...? Probably not... You would probably do it again and again until you got caught and punished by the law or your father.

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by RickO

Because there will always be people who break laws... we shouldn't have laws?

Rick

No but passing more laws doesn't do any good.

[TXiceman]

Laws are in place for people that are too stupid to do the right thing. There are some that are so stupid that they do not understand that breaking laws has a consequence.

Ken

[BCooke]

Originally Posted by randco

First kids playing the flaming suprise weren't raised right.

How would you[/] feel if you were the one that lit the bag and that created the involuntary manslaughter and your father or the law never caught you? Would you turn yourself in...? Probably not... You would probably do it again and again until you got caught and punished by the law or your father.

Um... and the one you are describing that is a habitual arsonist and a serial killer was?
As for the not being caught by the law, does that mean the law was not broken? (The tree falling in the woods thing.) Or are we back to personal responsibility again.
Life has taught me that you never KNOW what you would do in a particular situation until you are in it. You can have an upbringing that exposes you to values but it is up to you to act accordingly, with the current "it is not your fault" attitude, whether told to children or told to you by lawyers, it does not help.

Switch gears, we had it happen at work, smokers and their cigarette butts. When they flick them out the window they can start a fire, and did on the property of company I work for, about 1/2 acre. That was not a kid or fireworks, but thanks to the fire company it did not burn any businesses.
..... outlaw cigarettes? ...... please.... I end up picking butts that also do not make it to the butt can.

I feel sad for the person who lost their MH, I have also been on enough EMS calls to know that worse has happened to people by people who were breaking the law. By the way the a good number of the ones breaking the law knew it (many blood tests at the hospital). If it came down to LEO enforcing fireworks or drunk driving (greater than 10k death attributed in 2011).....

[Dunner]

If it wasn't for people shooting other people we would never have gas station car washes.

[RickO]

Still good discussion and it looks to me like we've circled into two camps... one believes that the passing of laws in an attempt to control public behavior is an obvious measure to take, while the other camp feels that there is already too much government intrusion in our lives and each new law passed chips away at our personal independence and freedom... and they make the argument that prohibition laws don't work.

Although I understand both camps, it does seem as though the "no laws" camp feels like we have no problems which could be solved by laws but the only alternative solution offered is to better educate future generations and for all of us to try to use more common sense. I'm not sure which is more naivete... to pass a law hoping it will work... or to take no action and hope things will get better.

Originally Posted by Ramblin

By prohibiting items for which there is strong demand, you move the economy for those items to black markets, where they can't use laws to settle disputes (they use guns instead), and there is NO regulation to make sure the items are manufactured and transported safely and consistently. Over time, we'll likely find that the problems associated with the black markets far exceed the problems legal and regulated fireworks would ever have caused.

So is it safe to assume that the "don't pass new laws" camp is in favor of legalizing all drugs? All the same arguments are being made in that campaign.

Rick

[Ramblin]

Originally Posted by RickO

Although I understand both camps, it does seem as though the "no laws" camp feels like we have no problems which could be solved by laws but the only alternative solution offered is to better educate future generations and for all of us to try to use more common sense. I'm not sure which is more naivete... to pass a law hoping it will work... or to take no action and hope things will get better.

I certainly don't subscribe to any camp that is in favor of no laws. They are anarchists, not lovers of liberty and freedom. It makes no sense to me to pass prohibition laws that are doomed to failure and will surely make the problem worse. Why not ban tobacco? Far more fires are caused by idiot smokers than idiot firework users every year. How do you think that would turn out?

Originally Posted by RickO

So is it safe to assume that the "don't pass new laws" camp is in favor of legalizing all drugs? All the same arguments are being made in that campaign.

I'd have to point out that it is OUR marijuana prohibition laws that have given rise to the Mexican cartels who are causing all that death and destruction along the Mexican border. They are fighting over OUR appetite for their products. They can't resolve their disputes under the law, so they take matters into their own hands.

Please don't misinterpret me to be saying I'm in favor of legalizing drugs. I'm absolutely not. I would have come out strongly against their prohibition had I been there though. The point I make is that the prohibition of drugs has caused more death and destruction, and cost the taxpayers FAR more dollars than the drugs themselves would have caused, and the campaign against these drugs has done little to curtail their availability. Any objective observer would have to arrive at this realization.

The exact same thing happened during the prohibition of alcohol, where the laws gave rise to a powerful mob run black market that caused way more mayhem than the alcohol itself would have caused if left legal. There too, the laws did little to curtail alcohol availability. Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it.

This is capitalism. Where there is demand, a supplier will appear. Every time. Regardless of legality. You can't ban alcohol and think people will stop drinking. You can't ban guns and think they'll disappear. You can't ban tobacco and think people will stop smoking. Why would you think you could ban other items and make a meaningful impact on their use?

I'm no advocate for anarchy. I do think that knee-jerk feel-good legislation without thought of what it will ultimately bring is the wrong tack. Posting of a burnt-out RV that was caused by a careless firework strikes a nerve with our community, and calls for firework bans soon followed. Seems a logical move, on the face. All it will really do is take a regulated legal product and drive its manufacture, delivery and sale underground. Just the same as alcohol prohibition did. Just the same as marijuana prohibition did. We see how those turned out. History repeats...

[RickO]

Thanks Ramblin. You've stated your case very well and I don't disagree with anything you had to say.

Rick

[Ramblin]

Originally Posted by RickO

Thanks Ramblin. You've stated your case very well and I don't disagree with anything you had to say.

Rick

YAY! I need a beer.