The result of idiots and illegal fireworks

[RickO]

I'm already past the beer and on to wine.

Rick

[4Knights]

Just got finished shooting off some leftover fire works, what did I miss?

[randco]

Originally Posted by Ramblin

I certainly don't subscribe to any camp that is in favor of no laws. They are anarchists, not lovers of liberty and freedom. It makes no sense to me to pass prohibition laws that are doomed to failure and will surely make the problem worse. Why not ban tobacco? Far more fires are caused by idiot smokers than idiot firework users every year. How do you think that would turn out?


I'd have to point out that it is OUR marijuana prohibition laws that have given rise to the Mexican cartels who are causing all that death and destruction along the Mexican border. They are fighting over OUR appetite for their products. They can't resolve their disputes under the law, so they take matters into their own hands.

Please don't misinterpret me to be saying I'm in favor of legalizing drugs. I'm absolutely not. I would have come out strongly against their prohibition had I been there though. The point I make is that the prohibition of drugs has caused more death and destruction, and cost the taxpayers FAR more dollars than the drugs themselves would have caused, and the campaign against these drugs has done little to curtail their availability. Any objective observer would have to arrive at this realization.

The exact same thing happened during the prohibition of alcohol, where the laws gave rise to a powerful mob run black market that caused way more mayhem than the alcohol itself would have caused if left legal. There too, the laws did little to curtail alcohol availability. Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it.

This is capitalism. Where there is demand, a supplier will appear. Every time. Regardless of legality. You can't ban alcohol and think people will stop drinking. You can't ban guns and think they'll disappear. You can't ban tobacco and think people will stop smoking. Why would you think you could ban other items and make a meaningful impact on their use?

I'm no advocate for anarchy. I do think that knee-jerk feel-good legislation without thought of what it will ultimately bring is the wrong tack. Posting of a burnt-out RV that was caused by a careless firework strikes a nerve with our community, and calls for firework bans soon followed. Seems a logical move, on the face. All it will really do is take a regulated legal product and drive its manufacture, delivery and sale underground. Just the same as alcohol prohibition did. Just the same as marijuana prohibition did. We see how those turned out. History repeats...

I agree that the knee jerk feel good legislation will not help in solving the problem. However, if a law is broken it should be punishable. No exceptions. You are correct, we can't ban tobacco but we can surely tax it higher. Perhaps that will force some to stop smoking. What about prostitution? It is illegal in 49 of 50 states. The worlds oldest profession doesn't pay taxes for business. I think that Nevada got it right.

A lot of our existing laws and their consequences need to be changed. We need to catch up to the times.

[randco]

Originally Posted by BCooke

Um... and the one you are describing that is a habitual arsonist and a serial killer was?
As for the not being caught by the law, does that mean the law was not broken? (The tree falling in the woods thing.) Or are we back to personal responsibility again.
Life has taught me that you never KNOW what you would do in a particular situation until you are in it. You can have an upbringing that exposes you to values but it is up to you to act accordingly, with the current "it is not your fault" attitude, whether told to children or told to you by lawyers, it does not help.

Switch gears, we had it happen at work, smokers and their cigarette butts. When they flick them out the window they can start a fire, and did on the property of company I work for, about 1/2 acre. That was not a kid or fireworks, but thanks to the fire company it did not burn any businesses.
..... outlaw cigarettes? ...... please.... I end up picking butts that also do not make it to the butt can.

I feel sad for the person who lost their MH, I have also been on enough EMS calls to know that worse has happened to people by people who were breaking the law. By the way the a good number of the ones breaking the law knew it (many blood tests at the hospital). If it came down to LEO enforcing fireworks or drunk driving (greater than 10k death attributed in 2011).....

No sir, I am not talking about a habitual arsonist and a serial killer. I am talking about you in this fictitious scenario where you said in post #76, "Randco, let's say it was the kids lit a paper bag of dog droppings instead.... And the outcome is called involuntary manslaughter.

Again in my opinion it comes down to responsibility, if I did something, like the paper bag, when I was I kid and my father found out, well today they would call it child abuse and lock him up. Not that I would be permanently damaged but it would not happen again."

Then I asked you in post #90, "How would you feel if you were the one that lit the bag that created the involuntary manslaughter and your father or the law never caught you? Would you turn yourself in...? Probably not... You would probably do it again and again until you got caught and punished by the law or your father."

I agree that an upbringing exposes all of us to values, but it is up to the individual to act accordingly. I also agree with your statement that said, "the current "it is not your fault" attitude, whether told to children or told to you by lawyers, it does not help."

In all situations if you don't take responsibility for your actions you should pay the penalty. And in my opinion, the penalties are far too lenient for our society.

[Dunner]

I'm getting tired of people picking on smokers. I think alcohol should be taxed the same punitive way that tobacco is. I love drinking but I don't. Maybe women's shoes, *ball games, corporations and politicians should be taxed the same way too. Let's see how far that goes.

[BCooke]

OK, below that I also put that that until you are in a situation you do not know what you would do. I would like to think I would do the right thing, I have been raised to, but to actually come out and say YES I would could turn out to be inaccurate.
If you think about it, even with the way the military trains people there are still those who do not do as they are trained to when the situation presents itself.
As to more laws, we do not have enough personnel, jails or courts now. The left coast for the most part refuses to enforce federal law, against marijuana and the federal government does not fully address what ever the currently correct term for people who cross the southern border in violation of USA law.
A friend and I were having a discussion, he is a respected LEO in the area. He admitted to this scenario... you are driving in foul weather, you have a accident, you get a citation for driving to fast for conditions, flip side, you are driving at a speed that is safe to drive but slower than the speed limit, you get a citation for obstructing traffic. Now he would not want to go to court with that in certain conditions but it is still following the law.
Obviously there is no good answer and just in case you stop in Omaha Nebraska, Sneezing or burping is/was illegal during a church service, you might want to check with cityhall first.

[Ramblin]

Originally Posted by randco

I agree that the knee jerk feel good legislation will not help in solving the problem. However, if a law is broken it should be punishable. No exceptions.

...and those punishments should be meaningful to the person who is being punished. A $500 fine for one is pocket change, and to another is financially devistating.

Originally Posted by randco

You are correct, we can't ban tobacco but we can surely tax it higher. Perhaps that will force some to stop smoking.

And what motivation does government have to do this? I have been a non-smoker for the last 28 years. I came out strongly OPPOSED to a recent ban on smoking in public places in my state. Why? It's not government's place to tell a business owner he can't cater to smokers. Business owners can already put a "No Smoking" sign in their business and smokers will comply 100% of the time. Let the market decide if a restaurant that allows smokers will sink or swim. Not government's place to decide.

Originally Posted by randco

What about prostitution? It is illegal in 49 of 50 states. The worlds oldest profession doesn't pay taxes for business. I think that Nevada got it right.

Just another failed example of an attempt to legislate morality. Another prohibition that does not work, for the same reasons the others did not work.

Originally Posted by randco

A lot of our existing laws and their consequences need to be changed. We need to catch up to the times.

Indeed.

[HD4Mark]

Not to start another war but.
Deaths from fireworks annually (2010) 3 http://www.cpsc.gov/library/2010fwreport.pdf

Deaths from alcohol 75,000 Alcohol linked to 75,000 U.S. deaths a year - Health - Addictions - msnbc.com

From smoking 443,000 CDC - Fact Sheet - Tobacco-Related Mortality - Smoking & Tobacco Use

Do I think they all should be outlawed? Nope. Use your head and try not to take out any innocent bystanders if you can't

Think I will unsubscribe from this one now.

[randco]

Originally Posted by Dunner

I'm getting tired of people picking on smokers. I think alcohol should be taxed the same punitive way that tobacco is. I love drinking but I don't. Maybe women's shoes, *ball games, corporations and politicians should be taxed the same way too. Let's see how far that goes.

Take a look around and look at people that smoke. Ever watch the show COPS? What type of people do you see smoking and drinking?

[BCooke]

Originally Posted by randco

Take a look around and look at people that smoke. Ever watch the show COPS? What type of people do you see smoking and drinking?

Sorry, have to answer this one.
Politicians, priests (every mass), lawyers, actors and the bunch, dignitaries.... oh, I see your point.... lol

Thankfully discussions like this are allowed due to the service of our armed forces... thank you folks.

[Dunner]

Seems to be a few on this and other forums that like their smokes and beer and wine and spirits. So, by randco's reasoning, everybody on here that smokes and drinks is a gangbanger, just like the ones on Cops. Oh, do the ones on Cops have motor homes, jobs, retired, will hold a job long enough to retire, or will even live long enough to retire.

[Midniteoyl]

Originally Posted by randco

I agree that the knee jerk feel good legislation will not help in solving the problem. However, if a law is broken it should be punishable. No exceptions. You are correct, we can't ban tobacco but we can surely tax it higher. Perhaps that will force some to stop smoking. What about prostitution? It is illegal in 49 of 50 states. The worlds oldest profession doesn't pay taxes for business. I think that Nevada got it right.

A lot of our existing laws and their consequences need to be changed. We need to catch up to the times.

Theres a huge cigarette black market, and prostitution is rampant regardless of being illegal..

[Midniteoyl]

Originally Posted by randco

Take a look around and look at people that smoke. Ever watch the show COPS? What type of people do you see smoking and drinking?

Oh boy... you had BETTER take that back! What RIGHT do you have??

Really cannot believe you think so lowly of smokers and rinkiers, and so highly of yourself. ALL repect for any arguement of yours just went out the window..

[Ramblin]

Originally Posted by randco

Take a look around... and look at people that smoke. [...] What type of people do you see smoking and drinking?

I see people who:

a) have the liberty to ruin their own health if they want to, and
b) have the freedom to deal with the consequences as they see fit, and
c) accept the responsibility to do so without burdoning others.


(ok, 'c' above is lost on some folks)