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Old 05-22-2010, 02:24 PM   #1
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UREA tank ???

Can someone please fill me in on this subject!!!

What I think I know is that future engines now will be fitted with an additional tank containing UREA that will lower engine emmisions.

Who will this apply to? Will we have to fit this to existing engines or is this for new engines on new coaches???

Will "old engines" be effected by this change???
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Old 05-22-2010, 02:30 PM   #2
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I know as far as diesel trucks used for towing RV's 2011's will have the new UREA system except Dodge Rams. The new 2011 Ford's diesels I believe are out right now or early June. As far as MH's I'm not sure...
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Old 05-22-2010, 02:35 PM   #3
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No worries on old engines. This is one solution to meeting the 2010 EPA standards which apply only to engines produced after 1/1/2010. Many manufacturers stocked up on enough '09 engines to see them through the '10 model year. Domestically Cummins is going the Urea tank route and Navistar is going the EGR route which requires nothing of the operator.

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Old 05-22-2010, 02:39 PM   #4
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The emissions spec is not retroactive, so your engine only has to meat the requirements as of it's manufacturer date.

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Old 05-22-2010, 07:40 PM   #5
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I did see two truck stops out west that were already selling urea at one of their pumps so it is definitely coming.
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Old 05-23-2010, 07:24 AM   #6
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Discussed this a lot at camp Freightliner last month. Tank locations, p ing in tank, amount, etc. Some new engines will require it. Those will take approx. 5 gals urea to approx 100 gals of diesel. If you get a low level (urea) warning, you will still be able to drive but not over 35 mph. No you can't use urine and the special type of urea is rapidly becoming readily available at most truck stops. If I remember the tank looked only like a 5 or 10 gal size. I didn't pay too close attention because it is not retroactive.
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:42 AM   #7
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The proper name is Diesel Exhaust Fluid. And while the active ingredient is urea, that ain't the same as urine, so no bio-waste in the DEF tank, please.
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Old 05-23-2010, 09:08 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVThere View Post
I did see two truck stops out west that were already selling urea at one of their pumps so it is definitely coming.
You can buy PEAK Blue-DEF here at the local NAPA store in gallon containers for $6.00 a gallon.

DEF is also available the truck stops I visited here in South Carolina and it's avalable there in 2.5 gallon containers for about 16.00.

Out by the pumps I expect that they will be making DEF available in 300 gallon containers. Below is the Blue-DEF product line from Peak.

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Old 05-25-2010, 05:59 AM   #9
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There's a few good write up's about it on the net, just Google UREA or SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction)

The claim is although it will appear to cost more due to having to fill the DEF tank it's not all that much more, because "according to Cummins" this technology gets rid of the old style EGR that recirculated the exhaust back thru the intake to reburn, it means a better and more efficient burn with SCR. Which "again according to Cummins" means more power and even a bit more mileage.

The worst part is the additional cost of the diesel engine. I've read claims of between $10K to $12K to the purchase price of a vehicle with this technology. But since they claim they're getting rid of the old style EGR which did have some physical items added to an engine it would seem the cost shouldn't be that much more. But, of course we know they must get their R&D expenditures paid back, and guess who pays that.
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Old 05-25-2010, 06:42 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (WA0MQE) View Post
The claim is although it will appear to cost more due to having to fill the DEF tank it's not all that much more, because "according to Cummins" this technology gets rid of the old style EGR that recirculated the exhaust back thru the intake to return, it means a better and more efficient burn with SCR. Which "again according to Cummins" means more power and even a bit more mileage.

The worst part is the additional cost of the diesel engine. I've read claims of between $10K to $12K to the purchase price of a vehicle with this technology. But since they claim they're getting rid of the old style EGR which did have some physical items added to an engine it would seem the cost shouldn't be that much more. But, of course we know they must get their R&D expenditures paid back, and guess who pays that.
Bob, SCR engines still use EGR strategy and that technology is not being removed. SCR was added to the mix as an after treatment system. Understand what's "old style" and what's new is all in the eye of the beholder basically for marketing purposes.

I recently posted a Press Release here: Navistar Resolves NOx Dispute with EPA In the PR you will see where the allegations that were made by Navistar and sustained by the court show where SCR will not always operate within the standard set forward by the new emissions regulations. Further it is alleged or fact that the SCR Group wrote the regulations. It's nice when you can get an agency to set the standard, write the regulations and field the technology at the expense of another company (Navistar) that is fielding a solution that works all the time, AEGR or Advanced EGR.

The BIG advantage of SCR is to be able to take an 07 Emission Engine and add a DPF, ATD (After Treatment System) which is the SCR Catalyst, Dosing Valve and a DEF Tank. SCR can take an already good running engine and treat the emissions downstream without getting into the engine itself. That's a good thing. The only thing that folks are going to be questioning is purchasing UREA and the few inconveniences inherent in the technology.

Navistar's Technology will offer that no UREA is required and that all the emission tasks are accomplished internally without the added expense of the UREA and the supporting infrastructure.

JB Hunt which buys a large amount of trucks Navistar and J.B. Hunt Sign Five-Year Supply Agreement who buy a lot of OTR trucks are going with AEGR MaxxForce Engines. The reasons that are stated in the article I believe will extend to other large organizations because of the manner in which 2010 emissions are implemented.

More important to the RV Community is that Monaco RV LLC will be implementing AEGR engines by switching from Cummins to a line of MaxxForce engines in all RDP applications. Tiffin is using the MF7 as is Four Winds.
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Old 08-31-2010, 07:37 PM   #11
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Price increase for 2011 big rigs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob (WA0MQE) View Post
There's a few good write up's about it on the net, just Google UREA or SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction)

The claim is although it will appear to cost more due to having to fill the DEF tank it's not all that much more, because "according to Cummins" this technology gets rid of the old style EGR that recirculated the exhaust back thru the intake to reburn, it means a better and more efficient burn with SCR. Which "again according to Cummins" means more power and even a bit more mileage.

The worst part is the additional cost of the diesel engine. I've read claims of between $10K to $12K to the purchase price of a vehicle with this technology. But since they claim they're getting rid of the old style EGR which did have some physical items added to an engine it would seem the cost shouldn't be that much more. But, of course we know they must get their R&D expenditures paid back, and guess who pays that.
I just spoke to a tech at a Winnebago/Itasca Dealership and he said that the 2011 large coaches 40-45 ft (and some newer 2010's) will have an approximate increase of $30,000 due to the new regulations. They are expecting a 10% increase in mileage. I have a suspicion that the 2010 and older coaches on dealer's lots will sell fast as buyers attempt to avoid the price jump. Joe
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Old 08-31-2010, 07:48 PM   #12
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The new (2011) Winnebago/Itasca View, Navion, Reyo and Via that are built on the 2010 MB Sprinter chassis have the DEF tank...my understanding is they need to be refilled at ~ 10,000 miles...which is in conjunction of the MB recommended oil and fuel filter change.
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Old 08-31-2010, 09:14 PM   #13
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The biggest thing with the 2010 emission compliant engines as mentioned above is the price increases. Freightliner told Newmar that a FCCC chassis with 2010 Cummins emission compliant engines would increase the average price of a motorhome by $12K to $16K. Cummins is using DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) after-treatment technology, whereas Navistar is utilizing an "in cyclinder" approach. FCCC & Cummins figures around 2% Def of diesel fuel consumption. Cummins example states that if a user were to drive 10K miles @ 7MPG they would expect to a fill 12 gallon DEF tank 3 times @ an addition cost of approx $4/gal for the DEF.

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Old 08-31-2010, 09:35 PM   #14
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Just to add a little real user feedback.....

We have ~1100 miles on our 2011 Fleetwood Revolution LE since we took possession. The DEF tank (10 gal capacity) was full when we left Fleetwood. We are now down to 3/4 of a tank left. I know, not very scientific, but thats all the info on our DEF usage I have right now. I will say we are getting decidedly better mileage than our previous MH (2009 Fleetwood Providence 40X) with the 8.3L engine. Also, noticeably better performance with a much heavier coach, and I'll go on to say, ride difference, WOW!

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