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Old 04-09-2012, 09:49 AM   #29
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The problem though is the other issues associated with ethanol fuel, whether in a brand new engine, or a 20 year old one. The biggest is that ethanol (an alcohol) is "hygroscopic" (it really likes water). In fact E10 fuel can absorb 50 times more water by volume than straight gasoline can. If you use the example of a 55 gallon fuel tank, E10 fuel could hold as much as 0.4 gallons of water in suspension. That number could rise substantially if the ethanol content is higher than 10%.
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If anyone thinks they are going to get 15% to 30% boost in performance or MPG by using E0, especially E0 premium in their daily driver or RV, well what can I say.... [moderator edit]
So you're saying that if you put 4/10ths of a gallon of water in your fuel tank it would not have a pretty dramtic effect on your mileage?

If your answer is yes, then [moderator edit].

Everything that reduces the energy produced by the engine for a given fuel load translates into lower mileage, period. Be that water, alcohol, chemical additives, anything.
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:10 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Murf2u View Post
So you're saying that if you put 4/10ths of a gallon of water in your fuel tank it would not have a pretty dramtic effect on your mileage?

If your answer is yes, then [moderator edit].

Everything that reduces the energy produced by the engine for a given fuel load translates into lower mileage, period. Be that water, alcohol, chemical additives, anything.
Please Read!

Premium DOES NOT DELETE THE ETHANOL!!!!! If anything, it has MORE than the 87, so you have MORE chance of absorbing water. Just going to premium in and of itself DOES NOT give you more mileage. And, if your engine is designed to run on 87, say like your RV is, then switching would most likely LOWER your MPG, ethanol or not.

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Old 04-10-2012, 05:21 AM   #31
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You can find it at the various companys websites, but sites like this are much easier to use, some like this one even have a mobile app for those on the go.

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
Thanks ! I've looked at Pure-Gas several times and wondered about its accuracy. According to that site, I don't have E free gas around me for about 60 miles (except for a few marinas), or in any place I frequently go to.
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Old 04-10-2012, 08:48 AM   #32
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Please Read!

Premium DOES NOT DELETE THE ETHANOL!!!!!
I didn't say it did, I said it was more likely to be since many states allow ethanol-free premium (or other grades of gas) to be sold still, please re-read.

Nor did I say just going to premium over regular would increase your mileage, I said getting rid of the ethanol in your fuel would, please read indeed!
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Old 04-10-2012, 09:35 AM   #33
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If anyone thinks they are going to get 15% to 30% boost in performance or MPG by using E0, especially E0 premium in their daily driver or RV, well what can I say.... [moderator edit].
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf2u View Post
So you're saying that if you put 4/10ths of a gallon of water in your fuel tank it would not have a pretty dramtic effect on your mileage?

If your answer is yes, then [moderator edit].
[moderator edit]

I said what I said, perhaps you should re-read it. If you disagree with the statement, then please post your results with your RV indicating a 15% - 30% increase in MPG.

I will respond to your water question though. In my blown Mustang, I had a water/alcohol injection system and ran plenty of water through the engine. It takes 91 Octane pump gas and converts it to 116 Octane. Water increases octane as it cannot be compressed, cools the fuel, it makes it less volatile and burns slower....creating more HP.

If you are not familiar with injecting water into internal combustion engines, read this:

Water injection (engines)

The .4 gal you speak of in E10, is a projected amount, not real world numbers. It's only a possibility under all the right conditions. I have a Ford V10 with a 9.2:1 compression ratio in my RV. I run 87 Octane E10 and I get 7.5 to 8 MPG towing a 4000lb trailer. If my 80 gal tank actually had 1/2 gal of suspended water, I couldn't care less. It would increase compression a minute amount which may or may not effect MPG, but not in any measurable way. If you have been able to make these measurements, please post them.

Now, *IF* I could buy 87 E0 everywhere I went, I would, as long as it was cost effective for the slight increase in MPG that I would see. That's a no brainer and we are in complete agreement.

I understand E0 is more prevalent in Canada, but not so in the US, except Alaska.

I would NOT put E10 or E0 Premium in my RV. Why? Because my engine was designed for 87 Octane and 89-93 octane in no way would effect performance. It would be a waste of money.

That's where you and I are differing here in this discussion. The topic of this thread was increasing Octane to gain better performance and MPG in an RV. As far as I'm concerned, this myth is busted and was ions ago.

I certainly and completely understand the benefits of E0. My problem is in the real world, it is not available to me. In the real world, it is not available to the people on this forum when they travel across the country, at least practically.

You have been touting E0 fuel and 15-30% increases, but you were never really clear if you would, or do use premium in your RV. You state a lot of statistics, but have never offered any real world experience or data. I would be interested in your findings of the increase of MPG between E10 87 and E0 87 in your RV and the price you are seeing for both.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:49 AM   #34
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[moderator edit]
It would increase compression a minute amount which may or may not effect MPG, but not in any measurable way.


Because my engine was designed for 87 Octane and 89-93 octane in no way would effect performance.



I certainly and completely understand the benefits of E0. My problem is in the real world, it is not available to me. In the real world, it is not available to the people on this forum when they travel across the country, at least practically.
[moderator edit]

As for the availability of E0 fuel, it's widely available, all across North America, a partial list can be found at the link I posted earlier, but for reference it is;

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:20 PM   #35
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I didn't say it did, I said it was more likely to be since many states allow ethanol-free premium (or other grades of gas) to be sold still, please re-read.

Nor did I say just going to premium over regular would increase your mileage, I said getting rid of the ethanol in your fuel would, please read indeed!
Whatever man.. your earlier assertion was that Premium contained no Ethanol and that by merely switching, you could gain 15-30% in MPG... But, thats alright, you were proven wrong on both and now backtrack..
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:42 PM   #36
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In most places Premium fuel has no Ethanol in it. By fueling up with Ethanol-free fuel you eliminate some risks to the engine and boost performance back up to pre-ethanol levels.

In 'real world' numbers this can translate into as much as a 20% boost.
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Whatever man.. your earlier assertion was that Premium contained no Ethanol and that by merely switching, you could gain 15-30% in MPG... But, thats alright, you were proven wrong on both and now backtrack..
Really man?

Can you show me where I said that?

Of course a little company by the name of "Exxon" (maybe you've heard of them?) published a map showing where oxygenated fuels are required to be sold based on the type of fuel in case you don't believe me.

The areas shown in white on the map are where they can (and usually do) sell non-oxygenated fuels.

http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/GFM...soline_Map.pdf
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Old 04-10-2012, 03:56 PM   #37
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OK I think at this point it time some of this needs to be taken off the board if you all want to continue with where your going.
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Old 04-10-2012, 04:06 PM   #38
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[moderator edit]

As for the availability of E0 fuel, it's widely available, all across North America, a partial list can be found at the link I posted earlier, but for reference it is;

Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada

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If you disagree with the statement, then please post your results with your RV indicating a 15% - 30% increase in MPG.

It would increase compression a minute amount which may or may not effect MPG, but not in any measurable way. If you have been able to make these measurements, please post them.

I would be interested in your findings of the increase of MPG between E10 87 and E0 87 in your RV and the price you are seeing for both.
I'm sorry you believe because I noted you typed a B instead of a P, that is was some attempt to negate your truth of a claim. I do appreciate the Latin and English lessons but, I think you missed a few questions. If you have no data to support your claims, that's fine, I was just really interested in the difference in MPG between E0 87 and E10 87 and hoped you had some data to share. Perhaps some day I can test it myself. I tried to check for E0 stations along my route on I-75 between FL and MI. So far everything is off the beaten path, but I'll keep looking.
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Old 04-10-2012, 06:38 PM   #39
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You may want to consider post #37 above if you can not find your future replies in this thread.
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Old 04-10-2012, 08:17 PM   #40
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You may want to consider post #37 above if you can not find your future replies in this thread.
With the app, numbered replies are not shown. Guess I better get rid of this app if the web can show replies that aren't posted yet.. that's pretty cool.
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Old 04-10-2012, 08:51 PM   #41
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Well then for the benefit of those using an app.

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OK I think at this point in time some of this needs to be taken off the board if you all want to continue with where your going.
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Old 04-11-2012, 02:49 PM   #42
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If you have no data to support your claims, that's fine, I was just really interested in the difference in MPG between E0 87 and E10 87 and hoped you had some data to share.
In the interest of a fair unbiased (even if absolutely not scientific) example of mileage drops owing to (IMHO) ethanol and the side effects related thereto the post below was one I came across just now on a completely different thread.

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I think the difference is in the quaality of the gas and the amount of ethanol in it. We have almost 100,000 miles on our 01 Ford F53 chassis. When No ethanol gas was the standard we averaged 8.5 to 9 mpg. With the advent of 10% ethanol the mileage dropped to 7.5 to 8.0 mpg. Now that 15% ethanol is more common the mileage is lowered to 7.0 - 7.5 mpg.

The problem isn't the engine or the miles on it. Whenever we travel through Iowa, Wisconsin, and some of the other upper midwest states we can still get gas with no ethanol. It's a bit more expensive but it is available. Guess what? Whenever we use the no ethanol stuff the mileage goes back to the 8.5 mpg range.
So, the poster claims to be getting;

8.5 to 9 mpg with ethanol-free gas, average of say 8.75 mpg.

7.5 to 8 mpg on 10% ethanol gas, average of say 7.75 mpg.

7.0 to 7.5 mpg on 15% ethanol gas, average of say 7.25 mpg.

If you do the math, he's getting 12.9% better mileage using E0 over E10 and 20.7% better mileage using E0 over E15.

And that's with a 2001 Ford V10 designed to run an ethanol blend.

With an older vehicle, like my 1995 Ford 460 V8 built years before the widespread use of ethanol in gasoline and the mpg drops are even more pronounced.
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