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Old 06-26-2014, 08:02 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
Well Sir, there's lots to think about when one considers adding that much weight to the rear of any coach. First off, as has been stated, a "lift" is what you're going to need, not a "hitch mounted" one.
So the Hydralift does not connect to the hitch? Is it welded to the frame of the RV?

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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
... lbs directly over the rear axle is one thing but, when it's "hanging" back behind the coach, it's actually "cantilevering" weight back there and in effect, is adding much more than the 1275 lbs.
I think I'll need a coach with air suspension so the coach will relevel depending on the weight on the back.


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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
What I'm getting at is, before you get too excited about carrying that Can-Am back there, do your homework. You need to know,
1. What your specs are on your GAWR, front and rear,
2. EXACTLY what does your rig weigh, while motoring down the road, fully loaded with all gear, fluids, people, tools and much, more?
3. What kind of structure (frame & supports) do you have for the attaching/mounting of auxiliary steel etc. for the addition of "ANY" maker of lift?
You bet. Good points. Thanks for the detailed information.
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:20 AM   #16
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For Rear Lifts have your front & rear axle weighted when loaded for travel. Then you can add on the extra weight of a lift by below.


Measure the distance from the center of rear axle to the center of the weight(Lift)
Divide that number by the RV’s wheelbase.
Multiply the result by 100 to get percent.

That percent of the load is added to the load and becomes the total load added to the rear axle.
That percent of the load is subtracted from the front axle weight and unloads the front axle by that amount.

800 lb bike, Lift 100 lb=900 lb
Center axle to rear 120” wheelbase 240”
120 divide by 240=0.50 X 100= 50%

Weight is 1350 lb added to rear axle
Front axle will be 450 lbs lighter
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:20 AM   #17
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Another option is to tow a pickup with a lift

You can also tow a full-sized pickup with the spider mounted in the back.

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Old 06-26-2014, 04:35 PM   #18
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So the Hydralift does not connect to the hitch? Is it welded to the frame of the RV?



I think I'll need a coach with air suspension so the coach will relevel depending on the weight on the back.




You bet. Good points. Thanks for the detailed information.
cucotx,
The Hydralift is a serious motorcycle/golf cart/trike carrier. Therefore, it's a frame mounted system. Just how it's attached, adapted and what kind of alterations are needed, is determined by lots of factors. I won't go into all of them right now but, to say the least, it can get complicated and intense.
I did the install and, I set it up just like I did with the Rampage in the back of our truck. And that is, to be able to remove that lift in a heart beat, to facilitate engine/radiator repair, maintenance and more. So, that's something to consider if and when, something like that comes around.

And yes, the diesel rigs that do have air suspension, also have "ride levelers" that take care of any differences in weight and ride height. Our rig, road at the exact same height with the lift and bike on there, as it did without them on there.
Scott
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Old 06-26-2014, 04:55 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Triker56 View Post
For Rear Lifts have your front & rear axle weighted when loaded for travel. Then you can add on the extra weight of a lift by below.


Measure the distance from the center of rear axle to the center of the weight(Lift)
Divide that number by the RV’s wheelbase.
Multiply the result by 100 to get percent.

That percent of the load is added to the load and becomes the total load added to the rear axle.
That percent of the load is subtracted from the front axle weight and unloads the front axle by that amount.

800 lb bike, Lift 100 lb=900 lb
Center axle to rear 120” wheelbase 240”
120 divide by 240=0.50 X 100= 50%

Weight is 1350 lb added to rear axle
Front axle will be 450 lbs lighter
You know,

Those weight calculations are good, if they work. I threw them all out the window because they were so far off, on our rig, with our weights, our bike and more. They "maybe" should have worked but, they didn't. Our coach, like stated, is an '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the C-7 330 CAT and, it has a GAWR rear of, 17,500 lbs. The front GAWR is, 10,410 lbs.

Prior to the addition of the lift, I weighed the coach, front, back and total. The rear came in at, 16,900 lbs. and, the front came in at, 9180 lbs. When And those weights were with the motor home completely loaded, full fuel, (100 gallons) full water, (90 gallons) and full propane, (31 gallons), both of us and all the tools, toys and equipment.

But, when I had the coach weighed with all the same conditions AND, the bike and lift, the rear came in at, 21,100 lbs. and the front came in at, 8,900 lbs. That put me right at, "4,200 lbs." overweight on the rear axle. As for the front, with the bike and lift on there, it came in at, 8,900 lbs. That's 280 lbs. lighter on the front end. And, according to my tape measure, the body in the front, was 1/16th of an inch, higher, with the bike on there.

I tried and tried to use those calculations, nope, it didn't work.
Scott
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Old 06-27-2014, 07:34 AM   #20
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You know,

Those weight calculations are good, if they work. I threw them all out the window because they were so far off, on our rig, with our weights, our bike and more. They "maybe" should have worked but, they didn't. Our coach, like stated, is an '04 Itasca Horizon 36GD with the C-7 330 CAT and, it has a GAWR rear of, 17,500 lbs. The front GAWR is, 10,410 lbs.

Prior to the addition of the lift, I weighed the coach, front, back and total. The rear came in at, 16,900 lbs. and, the front came in at, 9180 lbs. When And those weights were with the motor home completely loaded, full fuel, (100 gallons) full water, (90 gallons) and full propane, (31 gallons), both of us and all the tools, toys and equipment.

But, when I had the coach weighed with all the same conditions AND, the bike and lift, the rear came in at, 21,100 lbs. and the front came in at, 8,900 lbs. That put me right at, "4,200 lbs." overweight on the rear axle. As for the front, with the bike and lift on there, it came in at, 8,900 lbs. That's 280 lbs. lighter on the front end. And, according to my tape measure, the body in the front, was 1/16th of an inch, higher, with the bike on there.

I tried and tried to use those calculations, nope, it didn't work.
Scott
Why would you wanted to add any more weight to the rear GAWR when it was only 600 lb away from its limit?
To put all that extra strain on the rear drive line, tires, brakes, wheel bearings etc.

You were only 3,600 lb over the rear 17,500 GAWR not 4,200 lb. by my calculations.
You were 4,200 lb over the GVWR of the MH.
With no 4 corner weights you could have been over the max tire limits on one rear side.

The bike & lift total weight alone without using any other calculations, should been enough to discourage any MH owner from wanting to risk the extra weight.

Looks like you lucked out and didn't have any mechanical problems.
But the MH may later from the extra strain it took.

What was your bike weight & lift before adding to the MH?
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Old 06-27-2014, 09:36 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Triker56 View Post
For Rear Lifts have your front & rear axle weighted when loaded for travel. Then you can add on the extra weight of a lift by below.


Measure the distance from the center of rear axle to the center of the weight(Lift)
Divide that number by the RV’s wheelbase.
Multiply the result by 100 to get percent.

That percent of the load is added to the load and becomes the total load added to the rear axle.
That percent of the load is subtracted from the front axle weight and unloads the front axle by that amount.

800 lb bike, Lift 100 lb=900 lb
Center axle to rear 120” wheelbase 240”
120 divide by 240=0.50 X 100= 50%

Weight is 1350 lb added to rear axle
Front axle will be 450 lbs lighter
Great explanation and example. That is for a static load. While travelling the dynamic load can be much larger. The porposing could become quite pronounced.
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Old 06-27-2014, 12:28 PM   #22
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Why would you wanted to add any more weight to the rear GAWR when it was only 600 lb away from its limit?
To put all that extra strain on the rear drive line, tires, brakes, wheel bearings etc.

You were only 3,600 lb over the rear 17,500 GAWR not 4,200 lb. by my calculations.
You were 4,200 lb over the GVWR of the MH.
With no 4 corner weights you could have been over the max tire limits on one rear side.

The bike & lift total weight alone without using any other calculations, should been enough to discourage any MH owner from wanting to risk the extra weight.

Looks like you lucked out and didn't have any mechanical problems.
But the MH may later from the extra strain it took.

What was your bike weight & lift before adding to the MH?
Triker56,
I certainly understand your thoughts and concern. While being a Fireman for well over 36 years, I was also involved in the specs, ordering, manufacturing and, out fitting of all of our fire trucks. That included frames, brakes, differentials (both front and rear, (if four wheel drive) suspension, bodies, (steel, stainless steel and, aluminum). I was involved heavily in brake testing and specs. That included standard Meritor brakes and, special compound-high friction pads.

I did tons of welding and fabrication of all frames, sub frames, S/S plumbing and more.

Much of what's under a motor home, especially a diesel one, is very similar in construction, strength and quality of our fire trucks. Frame component and composition is also very close. I don't know if you've ever had any portion of a large scale rear axle assembly out of yours or not but, those components are seriously heavy duty and, like stated, mine is only the 17,500 lb. axle.

So, you see, with just a bit of experience behind me, I took that motor home frame, suspension, brakes and more, to and over, the "stated" limits because I pretty much knew what it could handle and not handle.

I do not recommend anyone doing what I did. This is MY motor home and there was not when we purchased it, nor will there ever be, any warranty to curb my application of equipment and components. I do not "blindly" make these kind of decisions. They come from just a few years of experience. When I was carrying that lift and, hauling the bike, an inspection of all the components was done before and, after every trip. That included all frame components, air bag suspension, welds, and more. Measurements were taken when the system was first installed and, those measurements were checked periodically to see if anything was changing.

Absolutely nothing changed.

As for the weight of the GL 1800, as stated in my earlier post, it hovers real close to 900 lbs. Each Honda Goldwing has a bit different weight specs, due to how the bike was outfitted from the factory. There are four different levels of that particular bike. Mine is category II.

As for the lift, If I recall, Hydralift states that it's close to 375 lbs. I did not weigh the lift by itself. That figure I'm talking for granted from them. I hope this explanation answers some of your questions.
Scott
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Old 06-28-2014, 10:31 AM   #23
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Triker56,
I certainly understand your thoughts and concern. While being a Fireman for well over 36 years, I was also involved in the specs, ordering, manufacturing and, out fitting of all of our fire trucks. That included frames, brakes, differentials (both front and rear, (if four wheel drive) suspension, bodies, (steel, stainless steel and, aluminum). I was involved heavily in brake testing and specs. That included standard Meritor brakes and, special compound-high friction pads.

I did tons of welding and fabrication of all frames, sub frames, S/S plumbing and more.

Much of what's under a motor home, especially a diesel one, is very similar in construction, strength and quality of our fire trucks. Frame component and composition is also very close. I don't know if you've ever had any portion of a large scale rear axle assembly out of yours or not but, those components are seriously heavy duty and, like stated, mine is only the 17,500 lb. axle.

So, you see, with just a bit of experience behind me, I took that motor home frame, suspension, brakes and more, to and over, the "stated" limits because I pretty much knew what it could handle and not handle.

I do not recommend anyone doing what I did. This is MY motor home and there was not when we purchased it, nor will there ever be, any warranty to curb my application of equipment and components. I do not "blindly" make these kind of decisions. They come from just a few years of experience. When I was carrying that lift and, hauling the bike, an inspection of all the components was done before and, after every trip. That included all frame components, air bag suspension, welds, and more. Measurements were taken when the system was first installed and, those measurements were checked periodically to see if anything was changing.

Absolutely nothing changed.

As for the weight of the GL 1800, as stated in my earlier post, it hovers real close to 900 lbs. Each Honda Goldwing has a bit different weight specs, due to how the bike was outfitted from the factory. There are four different levels of that particular bike. Mine is category II.

As for the lift, If I recall, Hydralift states that it's close to 375 lbs. I did not weigh the lift by itself. That figure I'm talking for granted from them. I hope this explanation answers some of your questions.
Scott
After reading this post I just had to ask a question. This is going to sound like a really dumb question because I think I know what the answer will be.

What pressure do you inflate your tires to? Did you install higher rated tires, suspension and axle?

I know most fire trucks are overweight by design but they are not overloaded. In the jurisdiction our firefigher son works in the trucks are ordered with heavier frames, suspension, axles and tires to account for the extra weight. They are overweight on the streets they drive on but are exempt from ever going across a scale.

They do short fast runs but likely do not make more than a few long extended runs throughout their lifetime so tire heat is not an issue. The department keeps a series of backup trucks to use when the inevitable breakdown occurs.
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Old 06-28-2014, 01:14 PM   #24
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Gordon,
The tires I ran on the coach when the lift and bike were on there were the same ones I have now. The pressure I was running was 110. It's the max for them. Yep, I was overloaded on them by 880 lbs. (total, not each tire). That was calculated in there. And no, I did not put higher rated tires, and I certainly was not going to install heavier suspension, axles, brakes and all that. Again, I knew what I had and, what it was capable of. This is something that I simply took on myself. I can see where there's concern but, if one has never been around large scale trucks, working on and with them, maintenancing them, altering them, and more, then all one has to go by is the specs the chassis mfgr. or, the motor home builder puts out.

As for your statement about fire trucks are "overweight" by design, I'm not sure just exactly what that means. For example, an "Engine" (the regular fire trucks with hose, water, a pump and a couple of ladders) would "by design" be specked out at say, 46,000 GVWR. But, fully loaded, with all 1500' of various sized hose, 500 gallons of water and, all the rest of the standard and specialized equipment, would run right at 36,000 to 38,000 lbs. curb weight. We had plenty of room for additional weight.

Our "Trucks" or "ladder trucks as many folks across the nation label them) were specked out at 66,000 lbs. GVWR. They were 42' long and, have 105' aerial ladders on them. About 99.999% of the fleet we had when I finished my career were made by Pierce Fire Apparatus, the largest fire truck manufacturing company in the world. They, completely loaded, with everything "including" the kitchen sink, would tip the scales at around 54,000 to 55,000 lbs. curb weight. Again, we had lot of additional "weight" room but, no actual, physical room to add additional equipment. They were loaded to the gills.

Again, this situation, was mine and mine alone. I knew it would work. It did. We had a great time all over the western U.S. hauling that bike and, towing either an '04 Jeep Rubicon that was built to rove around on Mars, or, we also towed an '11 Honda CRV EX-L AWD, which, after about a year, we both disliked and sold it.
Scott
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Old 06-28-2014, 02:40 PM   #25
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Scott;
The overweight I am referring to is being overloaded on the street. Not to be confused by over capacity (GVWR). An OTR loaded the same way would be ticketed and end up paying fines. The fire department by way of being a primary service industry and running on the streets owned by the jurisdiction are exempt from those rules.

I am confused by some of your rationale. You say you helped spec the engines out but they were all within the manufacturers guidelines for GVWR, tire size, axle capacity, etc. Yet you say the based on your knowledge that RV's are similar to fire trucks you are able to safely overload the tires, frame, wheels, tires, axles, etc.

Are you saying the engineers are right when it comes to an engine but can be ignored when it comes to a MH? Would'nt the standards be the same for both applications? If the fire department knowlingly overloaded the engines I will bet the union would have some strong statements about safety, hazards to both firefighters and public and the department knowlingly placing both at risk.

In post 12 you say that by scale weight on the RGAWR is over 3500 (21000 -17500), in post 24 you claim 880. In either case you are overloading the tires from 220 to 875??? Although you claim this situation was yours and yours alone you put yourself and everyone on the highways near you at risk.

I guess I am just confused.
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Old 06-28-2014, 09:15 PM   #26
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Gordon,
This is why I don't offer all that much advice here on the net to many problems folks have with certain issues. I've had many of the same problems or, issues, or, breakages, etc. and, have come up with remedies that have worked. I confess I go outside the box much of the time. I have proven time and time again that what I've done for a particular fix, works and no one's died yet.

I never said the FD specs their rigs outside of requirements. They spec them in accordance with legal and logical limits etc. They don't get to go over limits, in any way, shape or form. We weighed each and every rig, brand new, and, when it was completely loaded, ready for service. Each and every rig, was/is within legal requirements. Safety of all FD members was never and is never compromised.

My statements pertaining to motor homes being "similar" to fire trucks is academic. I never said they (motor homes) were exactly like Fire trucks. Enough said. What I did, worked. There was never any damage. The coach handled flawlessly. No one died. I've talked with many coach owners that also installed Hydralifts and were close to, or overweight and they've all survived. It doesn't mean they all were, just some.
Scott
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Old 06-29-2014, 10:11 AM   #27
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Hey Scott;
This kind of reminds me of some of the "reality" TV shows where the watchword seems to be "WATCH THIS".

I am aware of lots of folks who think outside of the box. Some of them come up with innovative solutions, others go outside of the bounds of prudent engineering.

I assume you are a member of the GWRRA. If you are you are aware of the recent drive for AGATT. That stems from the philosophy that it is not if an accident is going to happen but when. We can agree that most of the members will not have an accident during their riding career. But the ones who do will have better protection if they are wearing the proper gear.

I believe the philosophy that an accident will happen is a good one to prepare for. There have been numerous threads on this forum that deal with tire pressures. Roger Marble, a retired tire design engineer with over 30 years in the industry, has posted numerous times about applying correct tire pressures. He personally takes the actual weight of his motor home and grosses it up by 20% before going to the inflation charts. I think that is uber conservative, however using your scale weight as an example you could be in a serious pressure deficit on your drive tires.

As well using your scale numbers of 21,000 on the rear axle.

In the United States, 80,000 lb (36,000 kg) is the maximum allowable legal gross vehicle weight without a permit.
The axle-weight breakdown is:[4]
  • 20,000 lb (9,072 kg) maximum on a single axle
  • 34,000 lb (15,422 kg) maximum on the tandem axles

In doing a bit of research I find that most states limit the GVW of a MH to the Manufactured Stated Gross Weight or the Federal Bridge Formula.
Trailer Hitches | Reese, Drawtite, Curt and more

Bridge Formula Weights- FHWA Freight Management and Operations

While I applaud your innovative spirit I do not agree with what appears to be a disregard of legal and published limits, notwithstanding your wealth of background experience. While you are not likely to have an accident considering the driving skill you would have acquired through the fire department I doubt you would fare well in a court of law should you have an accident.

I guess we just have to agree to disagree.
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Old 07-03-2014, 02:54 PM   #28
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In the spirit of correct information, according to this article the single axle regulatory limit is 24,000 lbs.

Page 243 of this act
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