Do i need brakes for my toad

[calhyatt]

Originally Posted by Card3550

NEED SOME ADVISE HERE FROM SOME VETERAN RVrs

PLAN ON TOWING A F150 BEHIND A EMBARK(SUPER C)

WEIGHT OF MH IS OVER 33K, DO I NEED BRAKING SYSTOM ON THE F150

YES, YES, YES, Nothing more to say about the subject. Lots of systems out there that will do the job. Enjoy...

[mel s]

Originally Posted by RustyJC

Interesting rationalization, but the fact remains that your rig will stop in a shorter distance WITH toad brakes than WITHOUT them.
Rusty

Rusty
Do you have any tests or facts to back that up... or is that simply speculation/opinion?

It would be interesting compare the actual stopping distance of my coach/toad, (a combination that weighs under 23,500 lbs., and which is equipped with with 4 corner disc brakes designed to safely stop 24,000 lbs)..... compared to the actual stopping distance of some of the behemoths I see pulling 4,500 lb. toads with auxiliary brakes.

My light weight coach/toad combination may stop in a much shorter distance than many other coaches towing.

That's my opinion, (you are entitled to yours).
Mel
'96 Safari Sahara

[RickO]

Originally Posted by mel stuplich

My light weight coach/toad combination may stop in a much shorter distance than many other coaches towing.

Mel
'96 Safari Sahara

I'm sure that's true, but Rusty's point as I understood it was that your particular rig will probably stop more quickly with toad brakes than without them... and if you find yourself in one of those "only had one foot to spare" situations it could come in handy. Seems to make sense to me.

Rick

[flaggship1]

Originally Posted by mel stuplich

Right you are!
I would NEVER tow if my coach brakes are NOT WORKING... (and I would NEVER drive my toad if it's brakes where NOT working).

However, since the combined weight of my loaded coach and toad is LESS than the GVWR, (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating), of my coach, I use no auxiliary brake system in/on/for my '07 Saturn ION toad.

Mel
'96 Safari

In another thread that wandered into mountain braking you asked me

"Do use your cruise control when driving in mountain roads?
I didn't think anyone did.
I only feel safe/comfortable driving mountainous, (and/or very hilly), roads if/when I'm in control!
Mel
'96 Safari"

I have to ask you the same question now - do you feel in control without aux brakes - and especially when in mountainous conditions? Also - is there a reference to cite on your formula that tells you aux brakes are not needed when the conditions you describe are met - recognizing that many states see it differently. Again - trying to learn here. A Wrangler is in my future - and I have already decided it will have aux brakes, but using your approach, neither I nor anyone that isn't overloaded doesn't need them.

For others and not to divert thread - I was referring to using cruise on a straight and slight grade - that I was told had a 55 - 60 mph descent on the other side. Math quiz - what is an angle > 90 degrees but < than 180 degrees called? Anyone?

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by Rich and Cork

Here is a summary by state of towed vehicle brake requirements, with links to the state statutes:

Toad Brake Requirements

That's the most accurate one I've seen yet, it has CA, OR and WA correct, which is a rarity!

[Mr_D]

Originally Posted by RickO

I'm sure that's true, but Rusty's point as I understood it was that your particular rig will probably stop more quickly with toad brakes than without them... and if you find yourself in one of those "only had one foot to spare" situations it could come in handy. Seems to make sense to me.

Rick

RaodMaster web site shows that an RV will stop shorter with a towed braking system than without it, but still not quite as short as the RV alone. Pretty sure they've tested their systems.

[flaggship1]

Originally Posted by RickO

I'm sure that's true, but Rusty's point as I understood it was that your particular rig will probably stop more quickly with toad brakes than without them... and if you find yourself in one of those "only had one foot to spare" situations it could come in handy. Seems to make sense to me.

Rick

I agree here 100% - but isn't every vehicle of any kind equipped with brakes to stop it in a legal and known distance? Whether it can stop in a shorter distance doesn't seem to outweigh the need for a breakaway - and aux brakes when towing a car 4 down. Brakes obviously work harder under heavier weight - and are more likely to get hot stopping more weight from any source - toad or no toad. Isn't having aux brakes helping slow it all down, thus reducing heat, and improving stopping distance? I know Mel has asked another for specs - but isn't there some physics behind this that doesn't need explanation? Again - first toad is in my future. Trying to learn something here. Kind of hard to do when someone says - not needed - some states require it - some don't etc. I'm going to go with aux brakes.

[datrbone8]

I tried driving and stopping both with and without the braking system. You can feel and measure the increase in stopping force with the system.

[RustyJC]

Originally Posted by mel stuplich

Rusty

Do you have any tests or facts to back that up?

Well, for starters, how about Newton's second law of motion, in this case a = f / m where a is the acceleration of a body (in this case, your MH/toad combo), f is the force acting on the body and m is the mass of the body (again, your MH/toad combo).

The additional braking force (f (total) = f(toad) + f (MH)) created by the braked toad wheels will produce a greater negative acceleration (a) which will result in reduced stopping distances as compared to a body with the same mass and no toad braking.

Rusty

[RickO]

Originally Posted by flaggship1

Math quiz - what is an angle > 90 degrees but < than 180 degrees called? Anyone?

That's an obtuse question.

[tquarles]

Do you have any tests or facts to back that up... or is that simply speculation/opinion?

Well, to get boring and drag out old history, here's the physics from a post a little over a year ago:

Not to interject too much fact, but thy physics says that the distance to stop if you brakes are strong enough to bring your tires to a stop (skid) and you either lock them up or stop just short of skidding will be
K * 1/2 * V * V * (Mrv+Mt)/Mrv

Where K is an ugly constant that involves the local gravitational constant, the coefficient of static (or sliding if you're skidding) friction of your tires on whatever kind of pavement you're on, etc.

V is your speed

Mrv is the mass (weight) of the RV, Mt is the mass (weight) of the toad.

Note that the important thing is the term at the end is the ratio of the total weight to the weight on the tires that are being braked.
The problem is that the weight of the the toad isn't helping to generate any stopping force because it isn't pressing down on any of the braking tires, but the force generated
by the OTHER tires still has to decelerate it.(i.e. it participates in the F=MA equation to determine how fast you decelerate, but not in the F=KM expression to generate the braking force)



You want the 30% figure mentioned earlier in the thread - take a gasser w/18000 GVW (typical ford chassis) fully loaded and tow a 5000 lb toad. 23000/18000 = 1.27 - it'll take you 27% longer to stop. Decide that since your toad is so heavy you'll stop short of the MGVW of your rig and only load it to 17000 lbs - now it takes you 29% longer to stop...

And your 30k lb diesel pusher isn't much better off - 35000/30000 = 1.16 - still almost 20% extra stopping distance, and they're usually rated to tow 10k, so some may have toads weighing considerably more.

You can argue about the laws of the state all you want, but the laws of physics don't care.

That's why I didn't tow until I had a braking system in the toad.

[mel s]

Originally Posted by flaggship1

I have to ask you the same question now - do you feel in control without aux brakes - and especially when in mountainous conditions? Also - is there a reference to cite on your formula that tells you aux brakes are not needed when the conditions you describe are met - recognizing that many states see it differently. Again - trying to learn here. A Wrangler is in my future - and I have already decided it will have aux brakes, but using your approach, neither I nor anyone that isn't overloaded doesn't need them.

flaggship
Fortunately I do!

However, if I did not.... OR if my combined coach/toad weight exceeded the braking capabilities of my coach.... OR if I knew of anyone who got a citation for not having toad brakes..... I would have auxiliary brakes on my Saturn.

IMO toad brakes often simply give coach owner/drivers a false sense of security..... (there is nothing wrong with that).

BTW, Chicken Little convinced both Henny Penny and Ducky Lucky that the sky was falling...... remember how that worked out?

Mel
'96 Safari, (105 k miles towing).

[flaggship1]

^^^ I'm going to file this acorn with the - I never needed a Surge Protector and Never had a water pressure regulator for 30 years posts and use all three. Enjoy the journey Mel. You keep things interesting, that's for sure.

[datrbone8]

My father used to say "There are none so blind as those who will not see"