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Old 09-09-2013, 04:30 PM   #43
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I have used aux brakes for 12 years. Brake Buddy. Has been flawless. 10 years on a Saturn SL2. Now on a Wrangler. I stop quicker in much less distance. Has saved my cookies several times and possibly the lives of the dorks that pulled out in front of me.

My wish would be that all those without aux brakes would indicate with a "No Aux Brakes Here" sticker. I would leave some room for ya.
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Old 09-09-2013, 04:32 PM   #44
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So, it looks like you've gotten a resounding "YES" as an answer to your question

Here is an excellent article about why you need supplemental brakes:

http://www.workhorse.com/Portals/0/W...y%20brakes.pdf

To sum it up:

* It's required
* Chassis warranty and liability
* Wear and tear
* It just makes good sense

The bigger question is which braking system to buy and a lot of this has to do with personal preferences and the specifics of both the tow vehicle and the coach. Some units you need to take in and out each time you plan to use your tow vehicle, others you just put in place and don't have to worry about. Personally, I like the BrakeMaster by Roadmaster. The BrakeMaster is a direct proportional unit which means that when you step on the brakes, it applies braking pressure for the tow vehicle in sync with the pressure you apply on the coach's brakes. It is directly, hard lined wired - no relying on wireless transmitting or worrying about circuit board corrosion (I've heard of more than a few braking systems that have had water or sodas spilled on them and it was game over :( It does require a simple removal when you wish to use your tow vehicle, but it is really easy to do - the cylinder weighs less than four pounds. Here is a picture of the unit in the tow vehicle.

Good luck and safe travels!
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Old 09-09-2013, 04:41 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by datrbone8 View Post
My father used to say "There are none so blind as those who will not see"
That's for sure. "You can't fix stupid"
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:12 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tow Bars View Post
So, it looks like you've gotten a resounding "YES" as an answer to your question

Here is an excellent article about why you need supplemental brakes:

http://www.workhorse.com/Portals/0/W...y%20brakes.pdf


I'm happy to answer any questions that you might have. Good luck and safe travels!
I've never towed before and had no idea there were braking systems for towed vehicles until I started reading this forum. When I started doing research, the difference in stopping distance between having a braking system and not having one was the deciding factor. That was also before I knew it was required in Florida.

If I didn't have it and caused an injury to someone, then found out later it would have been prevented if I had a braking system, I don't think I would deal with that very well.

I haven't installed mine yet but I won't tow until I do.

Rob
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Old 09-09-2013, 05:25 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Mr_D View Post
That's the most accurate one I've seen yet, it has CA, OR and WA correct, which is a rarity!
Yes. I know the California law and have posted it in the past.
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Old 09-09-2013, 06:38 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_D View Post
That's the most accurate one I've seen yet, it has CA, OR and WA correct, which is a rarity!
Yes and as for CA not requiring brakes on a towed vehicle, but do on a utility trailer...remember laws are written and passed by LAWYERS...not engineers. Most lawyers could not even spell physics or engineering.

The vehicle towing the load has no way to distinguish between a 4000# towed car or a 4000# load of rocks on a utility trailer. As an engineer, I'll error on the side of caution and not try to go cheap by using weasel-worded laws.

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Old 09-09-2013, 07:58 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_D View Post
That's the most accurate one I've seen yet, it has CA, OR and WA correct, which is a rarity!
WA does not require brakes for stopping by weight, but does for Breakaway.

RCW 46.37.340

Braking equipment required.


Paragraph 4

(4) Automatic trailer brake application upon breakaway. Every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer equipped with air or vacuum actuated brakes and every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer with a gross weight in excess of three thousand pounds, manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1964, shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels and of such character as to be applied automatically and promptly, and remain applied for at least fifteen minutes, upon breakaway from the towing vehicle.
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:47 PM   #50
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^^^ I'm going to file this acorn with the - I never needed a Surge Protector and Never had a water pressure regulator for 30 years posts and use all three. Enjoy the journey Mel. You keep things interesting, that's for sure.
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Actually I do have a water pressure regulator.
My coach, as built by SMC, has a fresh water entry hose connector like this: Shurflo Water Pressure Regulators - Water Pressure System by Discount Marine Supplies, which contains a 65 psi regulator.

But I don't have a surge protector.

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Old 09-10-2013, 10:55 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by datrbone8 View Post
My father used to say "There are none so blind as those who will not see"
My father used to say, "A fool and his money are soon parted"!
And, "A penny saved is a penny earned" !
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Old 09-10-2013, 11:29 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgvtexan View Post
WA does not require brakes for stopping by weight, but does for Breakaway.

RCW 46.37.340
Braking equipment required.
Paragraph 4
(4) Automatic trailer brake application upon breakaway. Every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer equipped with air or vacuum actuated brakes and every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer with a gross weight in excess of three thousand pounds, manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1964, shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels and of such character as to be applied automatically and promptly, and remain applied for at least fifteen minutes, upon breakaway from the towing vehicle.
rgvtexan
"Every trailer, semitrailer and pole trailer"??
Where is the wording dealing with towed cars?
If there is such wording, I've not seen it.

However, if the state of WA classifies a "toad" as a "trailer, semitrailer or pole trailer", they apparently have no problem with my lack of axillary toad brakes...(since my Saturn weighs less than 3,000 lbs.)!
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Old 09-11-2013, 12:07 AM   #53
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Cummins states that the chassis is only certified to stop the GVWR, NOT the CGWR.

Quote:
Spartan owner manual Doc # OM-011101-02-G (supplied by Newmar at purchase)
On page 1-4 it states:
"The chassis braking system is rated for the operation at the GVWR - NOT the GCWR. Separate functional brake systems should be used for safe control of towed vehicles or trailers. It is important for you to understand if there are any government (federal, state, local or other) regulations that apply to weight restrictions for the areas you plan to travel. Government restrictions could affect the size and weight of the towed item and whether an auxiliary brake system is required"
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Old 09-11-2013, 12:11 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mel stuplich View Post
rgvtexan
"Every trailer, semitrailer and pole trailer"??
Where is the wording dealing with towed cars?
If there is such wording, I've not seen it.

However, if the state of WA classifies a "toad" as a "trailer, semitrailer or pole trailer", they apparently have no problem with my lack of axillary toad brakes...(since my Saturn weighs less than 3,000 lbs.)!
Mel
In WA a motorized vehicle being towed by another motorized vehicle is considered a "combination vehicle". The laws then state that a combination vehicle must stop from 20 mph in 50 ft. If your rig can do that then no add'l braking is required.
But, remember, that's only while your in WA state. Going into other states requires that you meet their braking laws as there is no reciprocity on it.
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Old 09-11-2013, 12:13 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rgvtexan View Post
WA does not require brakes for stopping by weight, but does for Breakaway.

RCW 46.37.340

Braking equipment required.


Paragraph 4

(4) Automatic trailer brake application upon breakaway. Every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer equipped with air or vacuum actuated brakes and every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer with a gross weight in excess of three thousand pounds, manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1964, shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels and of such character as to be applied automatically and promptly, and remain applied for at least fifteen minutes, upon breakaway from the towing vehicle.
Wrong info, look up "combination vehicle" in the WA laws.
Quote:
RCW 46.04.130
Combination of vehicles.

"Combination of vehicles" means every combination of motor vehicle and motor vehicle, motor vehicle and trailer or motor vehicle and semitrailer.


RCW 46.04.165
Driveaway-towaway operation.

"Driveaway-towaway operation" means any operation in which any motor vehicle, trailer or semitrailer, singly or in combination, new or used, constitutes the commodity being transported when one set or more wheels of any such vehicle are on the roadway during the course of transportation, whether or not any such vehicle furnishes the motive power.


RCW 46.04.320
Motor vehicle.

"Motor vehicle" means every vehicle that is self-propelled and every vehicle that is propelled by electric power obtained from overhead trolley wires, but not operated upon rails. "Motor vehicle" includes a neighborhood electric vehicle as defined in RCW 46.04.357. "Motor vehicle" includes a medium-speed electric vehicle as defined in RCW 46.04.295. An electric personal assistive mobility device is not considered a motor vehicle. A power wheelchair is not considered a motor vehicle. A golf cart is not considered a motor vehicle, except for the purposes of chapter 46.61 RCW.


RCW 46.04.588
Tow dolly. (Effective July 1, 2011.)

"Tow dolly" means a trailer equipped with between one and three axles designed to connect to a tow bar on the rear of a motor vehicle that is used to tow another vehicle. The front or rear wheels of the towed vehicle are secured to and rest on the tow dolly.


RCW 46.04.620
Trailer.

"Trailer" includes every vehicle without motive power designed for being drawn by or used in conjunction with a motor vehicle constructed so that no appreciable part of its weight rests upon or is carried by such motor vehicle, but does not include a municipal transit vehicle, or any portion thereof.


RCW 46.37.340
Braking equipment required.


Every motor vehicle, trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer, and any combination of such vehicle operating upon a highway within this state shall be equipped with brakes in compliance with the requirements of this chapter.

(1) Service brakes -- adequacy. Every such vehicle and combination of vehicles, except special mobile equipment as defined in RCW 46.04.552, shall be equipped with service brakes complying with the performance requirements of RCW 46.37.351 and adequate to control the movement of and to stop and hold such vehicle under all conditions of loading, and on any grade incident to its operation.

(2) Parking brakes -- adequacy. Every such vehicle and combination of vehicles shall be equipped with parking brakes adequate to hold the vehicle on any grade on which it is operated, under all conditions of loading, on a surface free from snow, ice, or loose material. The parking brakes shall be capable of being applied in conformance with the foregoing requirements by the driver's muscular effort or by spring action or by equivalent means. Their operation may be assisted by the service brakes or other source of power provided that failure of the service brake actuation system or other power assisting mechanism will not prevent the parking brakes from being applied in conformance with the foregoing requirements. The parking brakes shall be so designed that when once applied they shall remain applied with the required effectiveness despite exhaustion of any source of energy or leakage of any kind. The same brake drums, brake shoes and lining assemblies, brake shoe anchors, and mechanical brake shoe actuation mechanism normally associated with the wheel brake assemblies may be used for both the service brakes and the parking brakes. If the means of applying the parking brakes and the service brakes are connected in any way, they shall be so constructed that failure of any one part shall not leave the vehicle without operative brakes.

(3) Brakes on all wheels. Every vehicle shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels except:

(a) Trailers, semitrailers, or pole trailers of a gross weight not exceeding three thousand pounds, provided that:

(i) The total weight on and including the wheels of the trailer or trailers shall not exceed forty percent of the gross weight of the towing vehicle when connected to the trailer or trailers; and

(ii) The combination of vehicles consisting of the towing vehicle and its total towed load, is capable of complying with the performance requirements of RCW 46.37.351;

(b) Trailers, semitrailers, or pole trailers manufactured and assembled prior to July 1, 1965, shall not be required to be equipped with brakes when the total weight on and including the wheels of the trailer or trailers does not exceed two thousand pounds;

(c) Any vehicle being towed in driveaway or towaway operations, provided the combination of vehicles is capable of complying with the performance requirements of RCW 46.37.351;

(d) Trucks and truck tractors manufactured before July 25, 1980, and having three or more axles need not have brakes on the front wheels, except that when such vehicles are equipped with at least two steerable axles, the wheels of one steerable axle need not have brakes. Trucks and truck tractors manufactured on or after July 25, 1980, and having three or more axles are required to have brakes on the front wheels, except that when such vehicles are equipped with at least two steerable axles, the wheels of one steerable axle need not have brakes. Such trucks and truck tractors may be equipped with an automatic device to reduce the front-wheel braking effort by up to fifty percent of the normal braking force, regardless of whether or not antilock system failure has occurred on any axle, and:

(i) Must not be operable by the driver except upon application of the control that activates the braking system; and

(ii) Must not be operable when the pressure that transmits brake control application force exceeds eighty-five pounds per square inch (psi) on air-mechanical braking systems, or eighty-five percent of the maximum system pressure in vehicles utilizing other than compressed air.

All trucks and truck tractors having three or more axles must be capable of complying with the performance requirements of RCW 46.37.351;

(e) Special mobile equipment as defined in RCW 46.04.552 and all vehicles designed primarily for off-highway use with braking systems which work within the power train rather than directly at each wheel;

(f) Vehicles manufactured prior to January 1, 1930, may have brakes operating on only two wheels.

(g) For a forklift manufactured after January 1, 1970, and being towed, wheels need not have brakes except for those on the rearmost axle so long as such brakes, together with the brakes on the towing vehicle, shall be adequate to stop the combination within the stopping distance requirements of RCW 46.37.351.

(4) Automatic trailer brake application upon breakaway. Every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer equipped with air or vacuum actuated brakes and every trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer with a gross weight in excess of three thousand pounds, manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1964, shall be equipped with brakes acting on all wheels and of such character as to be applied automatically and promptly, and remain applied for at least fifteen minutes, upon breakaway from the towing vehicle.

(5) Tractor brakes protected. Every motor vehicle manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1964, and used to tow a trailer, semitrailer, or pole trailer equipped with brakes, shall be equipped with means for providing that in case of breakaway of the towed vehicle, the towing vehicle will be capable of being stopped by the use of its service brakes.

(6) Trailer air reservoirs safeguarded. Air brake systems installed on trailers manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1964, shall be so designed that the supply reservoir used to provide air for the brakes shall be safeguarded against backflow of air from the reservoir through the supply line.

(7) Two means of emergency brake operation.

(a) Air brakes. After January 1, 1964, every towing vehicle equipped with air controlled brakes, in other than driveaway or towaway operations, and all other vehicles equipped with air controlled brakes, shall be equipped with two means for emergency application of the brakes. One of these means shall apply the brakes automatically in the event of a reduction of the vehicle's air supply to a fixed pressure which shall be not lower than twenty pounds per square inch nor higher than forty-five pounds per square inch. The other means shall be a manually controlled device for applying and releasing the brakes, readily operable by a person seated in the driving seat, and its emergency position or method of operation shall be clearly indicated. In no instance may the manual means be so arranged as to permit its use to prevent operation of the automatic means. The automatic and the manual means required by this section may be, but are not required to be, separate.

(b) Vacuum brakes. After January 1, 1964, every towing vehicle used to tow other vehicles equipped with vacuum brakes, in operations other than driveaway or towaway operations, shall have, in addition to the single control device required by subsection (8) of this section, a second control device which can be used to operate the brakes on towed vehicles in emergencies. The second control shall be independent of brake air, hydraulic, and other pressure, and independent of other controls, unless the braking system be so arranged that failure of the pressure upon which the second control depends will cause the towed vehicle brakes to be applied automatically. The second control is not required to provide modulated braking.

(8) Single control to operate all brakes. After January 1, 1964, every motor vehicle, trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer, and every combination of such vehicles, equipped with brakes shall have the braking system so arranged that one control device can be used to operate all service brakes. This requirement does not prohibit vehicles from being equipped with an additional control device to be used to operate brakes on the towed vehicles. This regulation does not apply to driveaway or towaway operations unless the brakes on the individual vehicles are designed to be operated by a single control in the towing vehicle.

(9) Reservoir capacity and check valve.

(a) Air brakes. Every bus, truck, or truck tractor with air operated brakes shall be equipped with at least one reservoir sufficient to insure that, when fully charged to the maximum pressure as regulated by the air compressor governor cut-out setting, a full service brake application may be made without lowering such reservoir pressure by more than twenty percent. Each reservoir shall be provided with means for readily draining accumulated oil or water.

(b) Vacuum brakes. After January 1, 1964, every truck with three or more axles equipped with vacuum assistor type brakes and every truck tractor and truck used for towing a vehicle equipped with vacuum brakes shall be equipped with a reserve capacity or a vacuum reservoir sufficient to insure that, with the reserve capacity or reservoir fully charged and with the engine stopped, a full service brake application may be made without depleting the vacuum supply by more than forty percent.

(c) Reservoir safeguarded. All motor vehicles, trailers, semitrailers, and pole trailers, when equipped with air or vacuum reservoirs or reserve capacity as required by this section, shall have such reservoirs or reserve capacity so safeguarded by a check valve or equivalent device that in the event of failure or leakage in its connection to the source of compressed air or vacuum, the stored air or vacuum shall not be depleted by the leak or failure.

(10) Warning devices.

(a) Air brakes. Every bus, truck, or truck tractor using compressed air for the operation of its own brakes or the brakes on any towed vehicle, shall be provided with a warning signal, other than a pressure gauge, readily audible or visible to the driver, which will operate at any time the primary supply air reservoir pressure of the vehicle is below fifty percent of the air compressor governor cut-out pressure. In addition, each such vehicle shall be equipped with a pressure gauge visible to the driver, which indicates in pounds per square inch the pressure available for braking.

(b) Vacuum brakes. After January 1, 1964, every truck tractor and truck used for towing a vehicle equipped with vacuum operated brakes and every truck with three or more axles using vacuum in the operation of its brakes, except those in driveaway or towaway operations, shall be equipped with a warning signal, other than a gauge indicating vacuum, readily audible or visible to the driver, which will operate at any time the vacuum in the vehicle's supply reservoir or reserve capacity is less than eight inches of mercury.

(c) Combination of warning devices. When a vehicle required to be equipped with a warning device is equipped with both air and vacuum power for the operation of its own brakes or the brakes on a towed vehicle, the warning devices may be, but are not required to be, combined into a single device which will serve both purposes. A gauge or gauges indicating pressure or vacuum shall not be deemed to be an adequate means of satisfying this requirement.

RCW 46.37.351
Performance ability of brakes.


Every motor vehicle and combination of vehicles, at all times and under all conditions of loading, upon application of the service brakes, shall be capable of:

(1) Developing a braking force that is not less than the percentage of its gross weight tabulated herein for its classification,

(2) Decelerating to a stop from not more than twenty miles per hour at not less than the feet per second per second tabulated herein for its classification, and

(3) Stopping from a speed of twenty miles per hour in not more than the distance tabulated herein for its classification, such distance to be measured from the point at which movement of the service brake pedal or control begins.

Tests for deceleration and stopping distance shall be made on a substantially level (not to exceed plus or minus one percent grade), dry, smooth, hard surface that is free from loose material.

Brake
system
application
Braking and
force braking
as a Deceler- distance
percent- ation in in feet
age of gross feet per from an
vehicle or second initial
Classification combinationper speed of
of vehicles weight second 20 m.p.h.

A Passenger vehicles with

a seating capacity of

10 people or less

including driver, not

having a manufacturer's

gross vehicle weight

rating . . . . . . . . . . . . 52.8% 17 25

B-1 All motorcycles and

motor-driven cycles . . . . . . . . . . . .43.5% 14 30

B-2 Single unit vehicles

with a manufacturer's

gross vehicle weight

rating of 10,000

pounds or less . . . . . . . . . . . . 43.5% 14 30

C-1 Single unit vehicles

with a manufacturer's

gross weight rating of

more than 10,000

ounds . . . . . . . . . . . . 43.5% 14 40

C-2 Combinations of a

two-axle towing vehicle

and a trailer with a

gross trailer weight of

3,000 pounds or less . . . . . . . . . . . . 43.5% 14 40

C-3 Buses, regardless of the

number of axles, not

having a manufacturer's

gross weight rating . . . . . . . . . . . .43.5% 14 40


C-4 All combinations of

vehicles in driveaway-

towaway operations . . . . . . . . . . . . 43.5% 14 40


D All other vehicles and

combinations of

vehicles . . . . . . . . . . . . 43.5% 14 50
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Old 09-11-2013, 04:36 AM   #56
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I'm not an engineer or physicist:

By what ever means braking forces are applied to the wheels ultimately braking is achieved by friction of the tires on the surface they are traveling?

Weight and speed are the counter forces, so much weight moving at so much speed decreases the ability of the tire friction to stop in a certain distance as does the stopping surface ie ice or warm cement?

So why is this not as simple as; with equal weight and speed and equal braking systems the more tire surface area on the road with applied braking equals less stopping distance?

I have a supplemental braking system and use if faithfully.
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