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Old 06-18-2009, 11:36 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by FlyingDiver View Post
Common sense will tell you that the more braking you have available, the shorting your stopping distance will be in an emergency. You might be legal, and you might be within the engineering design limits, but that doesn't mean you don't need all the breaking power you can get.

joe
There is one problem with your reply JOE.. The first two words

You are 100% correct of course, Common Sense SHOULD tell you just what you say it should.

However far too often I find Common Sense is ... Not all that common.

Hence, this thread

And as I said, Joe Paxton wrote "IN another ten years we will have 1,000,000 lawyers, well over 10 years ago, and those millions (now) of lawyers all want to get paid.

Common Sense says if someone (not you of course cause YOU have common sense and thus aux brakes) rear ends me cause he could not stop in time cause he did not invest in aux brakes.... One of those lawyers is going to GET PAID!
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Old 06-18-2009, 11:43 AM   #30
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And as I said, Joe Paxton wrote "IN another ten years we will have 1,000,000 lawyers, well over 10 years ago, and those millions (now) of lawyers all want to get paid.

Seen on a billboard in Tampa Florida that was put up by a lawyer"

CALL ME AND WE WILL SUE SOMEONE
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Old 06-18-2009, 11:59 AM   #31
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When doing all these calculations they all fail to factor in the responce time it takes for a 40 year old; a 50 year old; a 60 year old; a 70 year old; reaction times it takes for these different age groupes are different; this affects stopping distance as much as how much break shoe a motorhome has.
Once the foot is on the brake pedal, the mathematics take over, so response time for any given age group in your posit becomes a constant with the variant being braking system performance.

Unless, of course, you're trying to make the argument that a 50 year old doesn't need an auxiliary braking system while a 70 year old does. If that's the case, I'd still respond that a 50 (or 60 or 70) year old with an auxiliary braking system can stop in a shorter distance than a 50 (or 60 or 70) year old without one.

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Old 06-18-2009, 01:29 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by RustyJC View Post
Once the foot is on the brake pedal, the mathematics take over, so response time for any given age group in your posit becomes a constant with the variant being braking system performance.

Unless, of course, you're trying to make the argument that a 50 year old doesn't need an auxiliary braking system while a 70 year old does. If that's the case, I'd still respond that a 50 (or 60 or 70) year old with an auxiliary braking system can stop in a shorter distance than a 50 (or 60 or 70) year old without one.

Rusty
Exactly, Rusty, I don't know how many more ways we can say it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wa8yxm View Post
There is one problem with your reply JOE.. The first two words

You are 100% correct of course, Common Sense SHOULD tell you just what you say it should.

However far too often I find Common Sense is ... Not all that common.

Hence, this thread

And as I said, Joe Paxton wrote "IN another ten years we will have 1,000,000 lawyers, well over 10 years ago, and those millions (now) of lawyers all want to get paid.

Common Sense says if someone (not you of course cause YOU have common sense and thus aux brakes) rear ends me cause he could not stop in time cause he did not invest in aux brakes.... One of those lawyers is going to GET PAID!
Well put. I was trying to figure out how to say this without sounding rude, lecturing, pedantic, offensive, ad infinitum. Your last line is really the bottom line for this whole thread. What else is there anyone has to know?
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:08 PM   #33
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I thought that this whole discussion was about stopping distance; not to be argumentive but I would include a panic stop to be from the time the hazard is seen till the time it takes to stop. reaction time has to be included in that equation. If your calculating from the time the brakes are applied ;there is no argument that more braking area wins.
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Old 06-18-2009, 03:13 PM   #34
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We're saying the same thing - for a given individual (i.e., reaction time is constant), more braking wins.

Rusty
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Old 06-18-2009, 05:57 PM   #35
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The original question----are aux brakes necessary? answer: yes----and --------no'---- not necesary----but you pay your money and take your choise.
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Old 06-18-2009, 07:37 PM   #36
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The original question----are aux brakes necessary? answer: yes----and --------no'---- not necessary----but you pay your money and take your choice.
The ONLY answer is YES, aux brakes are necessary...no matter how you try to argue it. The extra braking may make the difference between stopping or crunching.

Ken
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:01 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by RustyJC View Post

MH alone = 6.4 BTU/square inch
MH + toad, no auxiliary brakes = 7.7 BTU/square inch
MH + toad, auxiliary braking system = 4.0 BTU/square inch

I leave it to the reader to draw his/her own conclusions.
So, what is the maximum amount of heat that a brake system can dissipate? Is 7.7 BTU/ sq. in. reasonable? Does that mean the driver has to step on his brakes harder, but can stop in the same distance by converting the forward motion of a larger mass to heat in the same amount of time (distance)?

What about tire traction? Is this far enough above or below the tires ability to grip the road that it shouldn't be part of the equation?
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:20 PM   #38
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More tires on the road with brakes will do better than fewer tires with brakes.

Ken
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:47 PM   #39
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I tow a Ford Focus -- only about 2,300 lbs. Have a braking system and the breakaway system in place. Would not even think about towing without it in place.
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Old 06-19-2009, 07:50 AM   #40
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So, what is the maximum amount of heat that a brake system can dissipate? Is 7.7 BTU/ sq. in. reasonable? Does that mean the driver has to step on his brakes harder, but can stop in the same distance by converting the forward motion of a larger mass to heat in the same amount of time (distance)?

What about tire traction? Is this far enough above or below the tires ability to grip the road that it shouldn't be part of the equation?
There are many factors beyond the heat dissipation example I provided, but the significance of the calculation is that an auxiliary brake system can make a tremendous difference in brake loading.

Not addressed is the key factor - how much heat can the brakes absorb/reject per unit of time. In other words, how many BTU per square inch per second can the braking system absorb into the drums/discs (a function of mass) and subsequently reject to the atmosphere in radiation and convection? A stop from 60 MPH in, let's say, 5 seconds is much more of a challenge for the braking system than a leisurely stop made over 30 seconds. Assuming that all decelerative force is provided by the braking system (it's not - rolling resistance, aerodynamic drag, drivetrain frictional losses, etc. are all working to slow the rig), the same amount of energy is dissipated as heat in either case, but the BTU per square inch per second that the braking system must handle is 6 times greater in the first case - much more likely to produce brake fade, smoking pads, boiling brake fluid, etc.

This is where the benefit of the auxiliary braking system also comes into play by adding mass and square inches to the overall braking system, thus providing a larger heat reservoir while reducing the BTU per square inch per second heat load that the brakes must deal with in a given stop.

Rusty
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Old 06-21-2009, 09:20 AM   #41
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I tow a Ford Focus -- only about 2,300 lbs. Have a braking system and the breakaway system in place. Would not even think about towing without it in place.
Replace Focus with Escape and add some additional weight.
I agree 100%.

Life is to short to gamble on your life or someone elses.
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Old 06-21-2009, 10:05 AM   #42
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Whether you decide to use aux brakes or not, is your decision, which is your choice and nothing anyone states here will change your mind.
Now this is my decision. When you rear-end me in a accident because you could not stop. I WILL ask the responding Police Officer to check if you have a AUX braking system and if it was connected.
This way that information will be in the Police report as Vehicle 3 hit Vehicle 2 that was being towed by Vehicle 1. Vehicle 2 had proper required CAR IN TOW sign on rear window. Vehicle 3 did not have aux braking system as required by law.
It is because many people do not care about the law or care if they have enough insurance that we carry 1 million dollars of UNDER insured motorist insurance.
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