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Old 10-19-2009, 11:26 PM   #57
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It is extremely unlikely that brakes on the boat trailer would have kept it from jacknifing. Simple laws of physics. The Coach was slowed by an outside force greater than the brakes could have provided. the trailer is going to try to pass the coach.




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I just saw a diesel pusher that was towed into the Winnebago factory. A car pulled across in front of the motorhome which was promptly run into by the motorhome. The motorhome was also towing a boat which then jackknifed into the rear of the coach. After that the coach ended up off the road in the mud and it sideswiped some trees. Not a pretty sight. The front cap was severely damaged and so was the rear cap as well as the passenger side. My belief is that if there had been brakes on the boat trailer then it would not have jackknifed and the rear cap would not have been damaged. I think the same thing could apply to a towed car. More braking power is a good thing. Keeping the toad behind you is also a good thing.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:30 PM   #58
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Was there a point there?

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Originally Posted by robert h View Post
Please consider the following a snide remark;I mean no offence to anyone.
When doing all these calculations they all fail to factor in the responce time it takes for a 40 year old; a 50 year old; a 60 year old; a 70 year old; reaction times it takes for these different age groupes are different; this affects stopping distance as much as how much break shoe a motorhome has. the time it takes to take the foot off the gas and put in on the brake peddle makes all the difference in the world. some folks are really slow.
I've found that their are some that can find the horn quicker than the brake.
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Old 10-19-2009, 11:45 PM   #59
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I...................am.....................not.... ........................slow.............

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Old 10-20-2009, 06:49 AM   #60
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Real experience:

Years ago, before auxilliary braking systems were available, I was towing a car in the slow lane at 45 MPH with a 30-foot Pace Arrow Eleganza. Traffic around me was moving smoothly and I had a lot of room between myself and the car ahead of me.

There was an accident 4 cars ahead and all traffic tried to immediately stop. Fortunately, I saw it before the driver 2 cars ahead of me did and I was able to start braking quite early.

Unfortunately, some genius in a truck camper did a quick lane change to the lane I was in and stopped, leaving me too little room for me to stop before rear-ending it.

Fortunately, there was a wide shoulder and I was able to use it to get off the road. By the time I was able to get completely stopped, the front end of the Pace was 1 to 2 feet beyond the rear of the camper now beside me.

That experience taught me to always use an auxiliary braking system.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:19 AM   #61
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Heres an interesting question;

Percentage of accidents with Aux breaks.
Percentage of accidents without Aux breaks.

I'm betting there is no diference.

Comments please if you can veryify the accident.
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Old 10-20-2009, 08:45 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robert h View Post
Heres an interesting question;

Percentage of accidents with Aux breaks.
Percentage of accidents without Aux breaks.

I'm betting there is no diference.

Comments please if you can veryify the accident.
I think a more interesting question is:
the percentage of accidents avoided with aux brakes

We towed 3,400lb sailboat without trailer brakes behind a 1/2 conversion van for years. My family and I raced the boat in many, many regattas and we managed to get to and from those regattas without a mishap. Would I do it again? NO!!! IMHO, the growth in the volume of traffic and the number of people who just aren't paying attention to their driving in that traffic requires having all the safety margin that is available. Even driving the toad, I cannot remember having the number of people willing to cut me off that I experience every day on the road today. It seems that I spend 1/2 of every local trip any more with my foot on the brake, trying to recover proper following distance between me and the idiot who just made an un-signaled lane change directly in front of me. If I were still towing that boat, I'm convinced that I would have been in a rear end collision. The law is not on the side of the person hitting another vehicle from the rear.

Our old SL-1 Saturn was very light (2,300) and we probably would have been OK without our aux brakes on it. I cannot remember the number of times where I was thankful for every ounce of stopping power that I had as our MH came within inches of someone who cut us off. With our Vue, the aux brakes are an absolute necessity because of its increased weight.

Here is a different way of looking at the situation. Why do preventive maintenance? The answer for me is to prevent problems. I know lots of people who don't do maintenance on their vehicles and some of them make out just fine. I, on the other hand, aggressively do preventive maintenance and, after 30 years and many vehicles over 100K miles, I've never experienced a problem that maintenance would have prevented. I view aux brakes in much the same way. It is not about what happens but what doesn't happen.
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:44 AM   #63
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I'm betting there is no difference.
robert h, I have to tell ya that when I saw your question, I was amazed that it was even brought up or asked!

It makes as much sense as jumping out of an airplane with or without a parachute. The evidence here here would be a person standing or a person having just made a dead cat bounce.

The laws of nature (what we call physics) that dictate how mass moves over distance without being acted upon by an external force have been known for centuries.

There is a difference between using and not using an auxiliary brake, it's not a conspiracy been the states and the brake manufacturers. How can one expect to provide proof or verify an accident that didn't happen. More importantly an accident is just that. I do expect that a vehicle equipped with a working auxiliary brake would be a pilot error if the driver was following too closely.

I have been in several situations that with or without trailer or auxiliary brakes it mattered if only by inches and the brake made the difference.
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Old 10-20-2009, 09:50 AM   #64
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The real difference is in the stopping distance. Arguing that a rig having auxilliary braking will require the same distance to stop as a rig without auxilliary braking is a fool's game. A TOAD using its brakes will greatly reduce or eliminate it's influence on the towing vehicle in an emergency situation.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:25 AM   #65
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Michigan law defines a trailer as any vehicle, designed to carry goods or people, which is towed so it's weight does NOT rest on the towing vehicle.

And elsewhere it says any trailer over xxx pounds (i did not read the section that states the weight) MUST have aux brakes

Simple laws of physics says you MUST have aux brakes as well as they can make a significant difference in your stopping distance.

The reason for this is that if the car in front of you "locks 'em up" (goes into an all wheel skid) and you do likewise.. and at the point where you lock 'em up you are both traveling the exact speed.. The distance you are from his rear bumper when you lock 'em up, will be the distance you are from his back bumper when you cease moving. Since the only variable, with ALL WHEELS LOCKED, is speed, and speed is squared, all the other variables, such as the road surface, weather, gravitional force, and such, factor out and only SPEED is left

But if you have only SOME wheels braking.. the math gets downright complex with mass on one side and weight on the other (THey are NOT the same thing) and a bunch of other stuff.

Thus, the law says "any trailer over xxx pounds MUST have aux brakes"

Not having them.. Unless you have like a very lightweight (well under 2000 pounds) towed car (Smart car?) is simply reckless.
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Old 10-20-2009, 10:28 AM   #66
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All good points----but it doesn't answer the question.
By the same thinking, I could say I've never drowned because I always wear a life preserver; however I never fell out of a boat.
Its different but the same question.
how many have had an accedent in their car that was equiped with antilock brakes?
OK lets make this easer.

Percentage of cars on the road before antilock brakes that rearended another car.
Percentage of cars on the road after cars had antilock brakes rearended another car.
Just substitude breaks on your toad;
I am in no way saying brakes on a toad are not good; I'm just trying to make a point.
I've driven over 1/2 million accident free miles or more over the last 25 years and without brakes on my toad. the one accident that I did have was some nutcase broadsided me.
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Old 10-20-2009, 01:56 PM   #67
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All good points----but it doesn't answer the question.

I've driven over 1/2 million accident free miles or more over the last 25 years and without brakes on my toad. the one accident that I did have was some nutcase broadsided me.
robert h., I think a number of us are on the same page in regard to accident avoidance using auxiliary equipment and more than likely we are all doing so in the hopes that we can save wear and tear on our towing vehicle and keep within the limits of the law when towing loads in excess of 1,000 pounds in any number of states.

Your 1/2 million mile quote is exactly what was said to the judge before the defendant wound up over their head in legalese matters that they were unable to recover from because they might have inadvertently been involved in a fatality which might have been avoided for the lack of a thousand dollar device. (phew) It's not worth it to even theorize a statement along those lines however that said, I commend you on such an exemplary driving record!
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Old 10-20-2009, 04:09 PM   #68
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To all those that think that brakes on their toad is going to save them a law suit in an accident; An attorney ---WILL--- find a reason to take you to the cleaners, brakes or no brakes.
Once again; toad brakes are a good thing; anyone against them has had a brain fade.
I just don't have them.
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Old 10-20-2009, 05:55 PM   #69
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People will quote weights as examples or laws that really don't exist as they are for trailers. .
Question: Have you researched those laws? Have you researched the defination of TRAILER as it is stated IN THE LAW and not in the dictionary?

I have.. And I posted my findings above

Michigan defines a trailer as any vehicle WITH OR WITHOUT MOTIVE POWER (my emphasis) that is designed to carry cargo or people. and which is towed so it's weight does not rest on the towing vehicle

So, a car towed 4-down IS a trailer. under the law.. And thus the laws you poo-poo DO apply. Most strongly

Plus there is another law that applies.. Reckless endangerment.

And yet other laws (Laws of nature)

But legally, that towed car IS a trailer

Unless, that is, it's weight is resting on another vehicle, in which case that vehicle may well be a trailer. (if it is towed)

So, how do tow trucks get away with towing a car w/o aux brakes... Simple.. They support the vehicle,, or at least one end of it.
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Old 10-21-2009, 07:45 AM   #70
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I think maximizing the ablity to stop in an emergency should be something you should consider. Having an aux braking system would do that and maybe save an accident.

What is that worth? Maybe a life?
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