Electric vs disk brakes: pros/cons

[Scarab0088]

Originally Posted by twinboat

#1, Your not going to back a dolly, with a loaded car, more then a few feet, before it gets, way, out of line.

#2, There is a lock out key....

Hey Roger...you are EXACTLY CORRECT ON ALL POINTS...except this, backing the dolly loaded.

I have backed our loaded dolly with our RV a few times (all unexpected) after being blocked in*. Our record is 3 lengths of our RV (just over 100'). We just put in the backing key (yes, it's an EZE-Tow w/ surge discs) and s-l-o-w-l-y backed out of a gas station until we could make a sharp U-Turn.

* We had entered the fuel station/minimart with clear egress (pump islands facing a driveway exit lane), but a delivery truck pulled in and parked right in front of us at the edge of the station's driveway, blocking our path. No problem...we just finished fueling and waited. After waiting 15 minutes more after fueling, the truck was still there. Decision time...wait more, confront the jerk delivery driver eating his minimart burrito, OR back out. I picked to back out.

Just keep the toad aligned with the rearview camera...not easy, but better than the alternatives.

For the OP (GPont):
1. Disc brakes are better than drums...example; what is on the Boeing 747 and AirBus A330, or any NASCAR? Big Discs!
2. And surge brakes are our preference because they totally/automatically adjust braking pressure from loaded to unloaded, they need no wires to the front of the RV, need no controller under the RV's dash, and are MUCH less impacted by water on the road. This compared to electric brakes, which use 12volts to engage the brakes with servos at the axle ends...electrical systems don't like to be wet.

Safe travels

P.S. Our boat trailer (see photo below) has disc/surge brakes too.

[twinboat]

Scarab0088,

I wish the 2 times I needed to back up, were straight shots. I would have tried.

[GPont]

Originally Posted by billandcarol

disc brakes.
not disk.
not breaks.

Computers use disks.

Cars and trailers and tow dollies and motorhome use brakes.

I stand corrected.

Thanks everyone for the responses.

Gary

[Hikerdogs]

Originally Posted by EZE Tow

First, understand that to be 50 state legal you must have brakes of some kind on your Car Tow Dolly. In addition to that if you ever want to sell your tow dolly the first question a potential buyer will ask is if it has brakes or not. 8 out of 10 tow dollies sold have brakes.

An Idler tow dolly simply means it has no brakes at all. Idler dollies are most commonly used around town for short shuttling trips of lighter weight cars.

Electric brakes require a brake control device inside your RV or truck. These units have internal sensors that are dependent on the settings from 2 exterior adjusting knobs. If you do not precisely adjust these knobs then you will probably not even have brakes at all. Also, if a malfunction occurs one must trouble shoot the brake controller, the wiring from the controller to the dolly and then the dolly. A quality digital controller will cost between $450.00 and $600.00 installed into a typical RV.

The most superior and trouble free braking system is a Hydraulic Surge Disc Brake System. Not to be confused with a surge Drum brake system. Surge Disc brakes never need adjusting, cool off much faster and resists brake fade. A disc brake design is 4 times more efficient than a drum design. The pads are in clear sight and can be easily changed by a novice.

So, how does a Surge Disc Brake system work? A surge disc brake system is self contained and self actuating. If you imagine that the coupler housing that goes over your hitch ball is actually a piston that extends back into the actuator on the dolly tongue. When you apply your brakes the weight of what you are towing surges forward slightly and pressurizes the brake line. The harder you brake the harder the tow dolly will brake. The Surge Disc Brake design is very sensitive and precise from slight to hard braking. It never chucks or hits hard. It is very smooth and precise braking. Because tow dollies are so light weight the brake system will not activate on an unloaded dolly, thus saving the tires from locking and dragging while unloaded. A surge brake system should be towed as close to level as possible. The more level the more precise and efficient the brakes will be. The Disc Brake design incorporates a clever but simple emergency brake away system. Should the dolly separate from the ball for any reason the brakes on the dolly instantly go to full lock up helping to bring everything to quick and certain stop.

So, in closing, understand that electric brake and surge DRUM brake systems are functional but old technology. The most current generation braking system is the Hydraulic Surge Disc Brake design.

A quality digital controller like the Tekonsha Prodigy P2 or P3 generally sell for between $125.00 and $150.00.

Ford F53 gas chassis have been prewired for brake controller installation since at least 2001. Installation can be done by the owner and generally takes 15 minutes or less. If you're paying $450.00 to $600.00 for a controller and installation you're over paying for the product or going to the wrong place to have it done.

The last one I installed was in a 2010 Ford truck. It took all of 5 minutes. The newer F series trucks either come with a controller installed as standard equipment or can be ordered as an option.

As for the setup of an electric brake controller it is not nearly as difficult or need to be as "precise" as you seem to indicate. Again it can be done by the owner and takes less than 5 minutes.

You also ignored the advantages of the Prodigy P3 electric brake controller. Here are some:

5 storable setting options for pulling different trailers or preferences of multiple drivers.
A distinct, easy-to-read LCD display with multiple screen color options.
Up-Front controls provide easy access to all P3 features.
Easy to understand diagnostics show output current, battery, brake, and output voltage.
A flashing red warning system alerts user to No Trailer Brake situations.
Select Electric over Hydraulic or Electric trailer brake mode.
Screen information display in English, French or Spanish.
The Original Boost feature allows for different levels of customized braking.
Compact, dash-hugging design.
Integrated Plug-N-Play port for 2-plug adapters.
Snap-in mounting clip allows user to remove and store the control when not in use.
Electric trailer brake control for up to 4 braking axles.
Limited Lifetime Warranty

[RRR]

Originally Posted by TonyMac

...Look at the professionals, what do they use? I have never seem a disk brake setup on the trailer of a 80,000 pound semi, have you?

That is because the US trucking industry is slow to adapt. Disk use in Europe has been around for years.

[nothermark]

As I recall Drum brakes actually work better than Disc. Rotation aids the braking action. The big advantage of discs is fade resistance and easier maintenance. They cool faster and better than drums. I would assume professional drivers know how to use the brakes. Watching tail lights I'm sure a lot of car drivers are cluesless.

[Scarab0088]

Originally Posted by nothermark

As I recall Drum brakes actually work better than Disc. Rotation aids the braking action. The big advantage of discs is fade resistance and easier maintenance. They cool faster and better than drums. I would assume professional drivers know how to use the brakes. Watching tail lights I'm sure a lot of car drivers are cluesless.

Drum brakes work better than Disc brakes? Experts would disagree...like described in this article on Edmunds:
Brakes: Drum vs. Disc

Drum brakes are less expensive for mfg's, so we still see them on the rear wheels of some economy cars, because over 60% of braking is on the front wheels.

Of course - Air Brakes are actuated in a very different way, so that is why BigRigs are different.

Safe travels

[twinboat]

Drum brakes use less force to activate. Good in electric applications and mechanical brakes.

Single anchor brakes, will compound the stopping power. Large trucks have double anchor brakes, needing great amounts of force to function.

Take 100 pound per square inch, pushing 30 square inchs of brake chamber, against a 6 inch lever ( slack adjuster ). That develops tremendous pressure, to force the shoes against the drums. Disk brakes, need more.

60% of front, braking, only applies to front engine, cars, because the weight is over them. On MH's and trucks the rear brakes do the brunt of the work. Thats why the larger brakes are back there.

[Hikerdogs]

Originally Posted by Scarab0088

Drum brakes work better than Disc brakes? Experts would disagree...like described in this article on Edmunds:
Brakes: Drum vs. Disc

Drum brakes are less expensive for mfg's, so we still see them on the rear wheels of some economy cars, because over 60% of braking is on the front wheels.

Of course - Air Brakes are actuated in a very different way, so that is why BigRigs are different.

Safe travels

Air brakes are used on diesel powered motorhomes and large trucks for at least 2 practical reasons. In tractor trailer combinations it's what's known as "portable". In essence that means the tractor and trailer can be connected and disconnected quickly and easily without having to bleed the braking system.

Secondly diesel engines don't produce vacuum that can be harnessed to decrease the amount of pedal pressure required to apply the brakes. Because of this a different system needed to be developed. Over the years some have tried electric or hydraulic powered motors to generate hydraulic pressure or air pressure for braking systems. The now standard air compressor/storage tank system has been proven over time to be the most cost effective and durable.

The same system is generally used on large diesel powered straight trucks and motorhomes more for cost and simplicity's sake than anything else.

Gasoline powered engines do generate sufficient vacuum that is generally harnessed in the Power brake booster for the purpose of lessening pedal pressure. Over the years there have been several variations of this system, but the most common, and again most cost effective, today is still the vacuum operated power booster.

[Moxy]

Originally Posted by EZE Tow

Not sure what you mean when you say the surge disc brake system will push you. A surge disc brake system never pushes. It is 4 times more powerful then a drum brake system, cools off in seconds and NEVER needs adjusting.
Drum brakes on dollies are very difficult to adjust because the adjusting port is blocked by the spindle plate. Very few people would ever adjust the brakes every 5k miles as required. At some point they would not even have brakes. Trailers, dollies in particular, do not have self adjusting brakes.
A real nuisance system. technically obsolete.

maybe you could call GM and give them a lesson on how to build disc brake systems, on 5th or 6th set of calipers, rotors and pad on my suburban, cant recall any on my old chev pickup with drums.

[twinboat]

Originally Posted by Hikerdogs

Air brakes are used on diesel powered motorhomes and large trucks for at least 2 practical reasons. In tractor trailer combinations it's what's known as "portable". In essence that means the tractor and trailer can be connected and disconnected quickly and easily without having to bleed the braking system.

Secondly diesel engines don't produce vacuum that can be harnessed to decrease the amount of pedal pressure required to apply the brakes. Because of this a different system needed to be developed. Over the years some have tried electric or hydraulic powered motors to generate hydraulic pressure or air pressure for braking systems. The now standard air compressor/storage tank system has been proven over time to be the most cost effective and durable.

The same system is generally used on large diesel powered straight trucks and motorhomes more for cost and simplicity's sake than anything else.

Gasoline powered engines do generate sufficient vacuum that is generally harnessed in the Power brake booster for the purpose of lessening pedal pressure. Over the years there have been several variations of this system, but the most common, and again most cost effective, today is still the vacuum operated power booster.

I believe many manufactures are going to hydro-brake, boosters, tapping the brake assist, off of the steering pump. Eliminates the large vacuum booster.

[Hikerdogs]

Originally Posted by twinboat

I believe many manufactures are going to hydro-brake, boosters, tapping the brake assist, off of the steering pump. Eliminates the large vacuum booster.

For many years GM used the hydro boost system which was powered by the power steering pump. The downside was when the engine died (or wasn't running) there was no power brake assist.

Now the only RV chassis that uses it are the lighter Ford F53 chassis. Ford chassis above the 18,000 GVWR use the Hydro-Max system which is vacuum assist with an added electric pump that engages if the vacuum assist fails, or the engine isn't running.

The newest power steering system installed in most cars since about 2012 is electric. There is no direct connection between the steering wheel and the wheels. The steering wheel is attached to a "resolver" that sends a signal to a computer. The computer determines how far the steering wheel has moved and activates an electric motor on the rack and pinion to move the wheels the proper amount in the proper direction.

It's all a part of the attempt to increase fuel mileage. The theory is that the electric motor takes less power to operate, thus the gasoline powered engine can be smaller. Smaller engine equates to less fuel usage. Time will tell if the theory holds true.

As a side note there is recent news article about a Jeep Cherokee being "hijacked". This is one of the vehicles that currently uses electric steering. The people that did the demonstration were trying to show the manufacturer that using an unsecured system could result in malicious attempts by hackers to disrupt the steering system and cause problems.

[twinboat]

My info says that the Bosch Hydro Boost and the earlier Hydro Max boosters are both power steering activated, with a electric motor backup.

[nothermark]

Originally Posted by Scarab0088

Drum brakes work better than Disc brakes? Experts would disagree...like described in this article on Edmunds:
Brakes: Drum vs. Disc

Drum brakes are less expensive for mfg's, so we still see them on the rear wheels of some economy cars, because over 60% of braking is on the front wheels.

Of course - Air Brakes are actuated in a very different way, so that is why BigRigs are different.

Safe travels

Read your own article:
"This basic design proved capable under most circumstances, but it had one major flaw. Under high braking conditions, like descending a steep hill with a heavy load or repeated high-speed slow downs, drum brakes would often fade and lose effectiveness. "

I think that was what I said. The problem with disc brakes is that they need much higher pedal pressure without a booster. They are a large part of why power brakes became standard.