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Old 12-10-2008, 08:09 AM   #1
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I just got off the phone with the technical support guy from Roadmaster. I was unhappy before he called and now I'm just plain angry. IMHO, I've been treated terribly since I placed my order for a new baseplate and today was just the last straw. Here are the historical facts:
1. When we first bought our coach, I had the dealer install the baseplate on our current toad to match the Falcon2 towbar that I wanted. We had some initial manufacturing problems and parts on the tow bar had to be replaced. Everything, however, has worked fine for the past 5 years.
2. We recently bought a 2005 Saturn Vue as a toad. I called Roadmaster and they suggested that I place the order with another vendor for a new baseplate as that vendor could sell it to me cheaper. I did that on 11/3.
3. Without any contact with me (even though I provided all my information with the order, shipment of the baseplate was delayed. Several phone calls later, I never did get the status of the shipment - the baseplate just showed up one day. In the mean time, I'd ordered that 17/32" drill bit that I would need to do the install separately (different vendor), it was backordered and finally showed up 12/2
4. On 12/5, I found time to do the baseplate installation. Following the instructions, I mounted it with two existing bolts and was prepared to drill the 4 new holes required. In the center of the subframe on the vehicle were two existing holes that didn't line up with the baseplate holes. It was clear that the only way to fix the problem was to "wallow out" those frame holes to allow me to use the baseplate as a template to drill through the top of the frame as the instructions called for. Further, with the flange tight at that point and the existing bolts tight, the remaining flange on the baseplate had more than 1/2" gap between it and the frame member where it was supposed to bolt. I immediately called Roadmaster. I finally reached someone in customer service. After a conversation with her, I took digital pictures of the baseplate in place on the vehicle frame and e-mailed them to her. I followed up with a phone call to ensure receipt (it was a large sized file with the pictures and I was concerned that it might be trashed by some firewall.) We agree that she didn't need to respond that day.
5. The following Monday, near the end of their day, I called again when I hadn't heard anything. I was promised a callback. Instead, I got an e-mail, asking for my VIN, which I supplied. There was no further contact.
6. When I hadn't heard anything by the close of business the next day, I called again to the person requesting the VIN. She finally called me back and started to talk to me about my contacts with their technical staff. I informed her that she was the first person to ever call me back regarding this problem. She promised that the technical guy would call me to go over baseplate measurements with me and that if that worked out OK, she would put me in touch with their lead installation guy for further guidance.
7.Today, the lead technical guy did call me. He did not have my pictures available to him but did say that he had seen them. I relayed the two problems that I saw. He was very curt and told me:
a. There are no problems with that base plate. There had been problems but those were with the existing bolt holes. Since my existing bolts lined up. The baseplate was fine. He was not going to check the measurements of it with me.
b. The mis-aligned holes and the gap that I noticed were "normal" and that since I was doing the installation, I could pretty much figure those problems out on my own.

Perhaps my expectations are too high. The installation instructions are very clear, however - follow the instructions precisely or you are at risk. I consider variations to be a serious matter.

Since my only other alternative is to completely replace the tow bar,etc., I'm going to:
1. Re-do the baseplate installation, wallowing out the lower frame holes and drilling the required holes.
2. Bolt up the base plate where the gap exists after I enlarge those holes. If I cannot reasonably draw that gap closed with the bolt (I am concerned about torquing that part of the frame in that process), I'll use washers to help fill that gap. Since I have no knowledge of the engineering of the baseplate at that point, I don't know whether that is a good thing or a bad thing.
3. Send Roadmaster a registered letter, telling them that I believe that I've compromised the installation instructions at their request and that I'm going to hold them responsible for any resulting damage to the baseplate and to my toad.

As a post script, I ordered a Hidden Hitch for this same vehicle and installed it the prior week without incident. It bolted up perfectly, with far less gaps than the Roadmaster baseplate. While I'm not the best mechanic in the world, I'm not without some skills and understanding.

I've been very pleased with the Roadmaster products that I've bought. I've had the baseplate and towbar and have also been using their Brakemaster system. They are all great. It seems a shame that a company that can product quality products is willing to provide what I feel is lousy customer service.
My expectations are simple: respond to customer requests in a timely manner and do what you say you are going to do. I didn't press for any specific commitments from them and cannot understand why they are unable or unwilling to do what they volunteered to do. Of all of the areas in the MH setup, the last place that I expected or wanted compromises was with the baseplate.

I wish I felt better after venting but I don't

Charlie
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Old 12-10-2008, 08:09 AM   #2
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I just got off the phone with the technical support guy from Roadmaster. I was unhappy before he called and now I'm just plain angry. IMHO, I've been treated terribly since I placed my order for a new baseplate and today was just the last straw. Here are the historical facts:
1. When we first bought our coach, I had the dealer install the baseplate on our current toad to match the Falcon2 towbar that I wanted. We had some initial manufacturing problems and parts on the tow bar had to be replaced. Everything, however, has worked fine for the past 5 years.
2. We recently bought a 2005 Saturn Vue as a toad. I called Roadmaster and they suggested that I place the order with another vendor for a new baseplate as that vendor could sell it to me cheaper. I did that on 11/3.
3. Without any contact with me (even though I provided all my information with the order, shipment of the baseplate was delayed. Several phone calls later, I never did get the status of the shipment - the baseplate just showed up one day. In the mean time, I'd ordered that 17/32" drill bit that I would need to do the install separately (different vendor), it was backordered and finally showed up 12/2
4. On 12/5, I found time to do the baseplate installation. Following the instructions, I mounted it with two existing bolts and was prepared to drill the 4 new holes required. In the center of the subframe on the vehicle were two existing holes that didn't line up with the baseplate holes. It was clear that the only way to fix the problem was to "wallow out" those frame holes to allow me to use the baseplate as a template to drill through the top of the frame as the instructions called for. Further, with the flange tight at that point and the existing bolts tight, the remaining flange on the baseplate had more than 1/2" gap between it and the frame member where it was supposed to bolt. I immediately called Roadmaster. I finally reached someone in customer service. After a conversation with her, I took digital pictures of the baseplate in place on the vehicle frame and e-mailed them to her. I followed up with a phone call to ensure receipt (it was a large sized file with the pictures and I was concerned that it might be trashed by some firewall.) We agree that she didn't need to respond that day.
5. The following Monday, near the end of their day, I called again when I hadn't heard anything. I was promised a callback. Instead, I got an e-mail, asking for my VIN, which I supplied. There was no further contact.
6. When I hadn't heard anything by the close of business the next day, I called again to the person requesting the VIN. She finally called me back and started to talk to me about my contacts with their technical staff. I informed her that she was the first person to ever call me back regarding this problem. She promised that the technical guy would call me to go over baseplate measurements with me and that if that worked out OK, she would put me in touch with their lead installation guy for further guidance.
7.Today, the lead technical guy did call me. He did not have my pictures available to him but did say that he had seen them. I relayed the two problems that I saw. He was very curt and told me:
a. There are no problems with that base plate. There had been problems but those were with the existing bolt holes. Since my existing bolts lined up. The baseplate was fine. He was not going to check the measurements of it with me.
b. The mis-aligned holes and the gap that I noticed were "normal" and that since I was doing the installation, I could pretty much figure those problems out on my own.

Perhaps my expectations are too high. The installation instructions are very clear, however - follow the instructions precisely or you are at risk. I consider variations to be a serious matter.

Since my only other alternative is to completely replace the tow bar,etc., I'm going to:
1. Re-do the baseplate installation, wallowing out the lower frame holes and drilling the required holes.
2. Bolt up the base plate where the gap exists after I enlarge those holes. If I cannot reasonably draw that gap closed with the bolt (I am concerned about torquing that part of the frame in that process), I'll use washers to help fill that gap. Since I have no knowledge of the engineering of the baseplate at that point, I don't know whether that is a good thing or a bad thing.
3. Send Roadmaster a registered letter, telling them that I believe that I've compromised the installation instructions at their request and that I'm going to hold them responsible for any resulting damage to the baseplate and to my toad.

As a post script, I ordered a Hidden Hitch for this same vehicle and installed it the prior week without incident. It bolted up perfectly, with far less gaps than the Roadmaster baseplate. While I'm not the best mechanic in the world, I'm not without some skills and understanding.

I've been very pleased with the Roadmaster products that I've bought. I've had the baseplate and towbar and have also been using their Brakemaster system. They are all great. It seems a shame that a company that can product quality products is willing to provide what I feel is lousy customer service.
My expectations are simple: respond to customer requests in a timely manner and do what you say you are going to do. I didn't press for any specific commitments from them and cannot understand why they are unable or unwilling to do what they volunteered to do. Of all of the areas in the MH setup, the last place that I expected or wanted compromises was with the baseplate.

I wish I felt better after venting but I don't

Charlie
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Old 12-10-2008, 11:30 AM   #3
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Did you buy the Saturn used?? If so it is possible that it was involved in an accident.

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Old 12-10-2008, 12:02 PM   #4
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I did by the Saturn used. I pulled a Carfax on it, which is supposed to gather any "significant" insurance claim that was ever filed on the vehicle and there were none. Examination of the underbody (which I did carefully both before the purchase and in the 5 day period where I could still return it afterwards, shows none of the tell-tale signs of body repairs.
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Old 12-17-2008, 06:03 PM   #5
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Update:

I've been busily trying to get some information about the specifications and measurements on my Vue's frame. Obviously, if there were a problem, it goes far deeper than just the base plate problem. I finally found a local body shop (after exhausting all possible contacts with local Saturn dealers and the corporate Saturn hotline) who had a one page list of all of the 2005 Vue chassis measurements off their frame machine and were willing to share a copy with me. A preliminary check of my Vue's frame against several of the measurements showed no problems.

I fired off an e-mail to Roadmaster, asking what the next step should be if I determined that indeed, my frame met the specifications. Within a 1/2 hour, I got a call back from Jerry, the head of installation and design who apologized for his company's treatment of me and give his direct phone number. We discussed the specifics of my concerns and he told me:
1. It is OK to put a large washer between the baseplate and frame in the corner location. The gap was more than 1/2" and I was worried about the stress that I was putting on the frame, trying to draw it closed.
2. The center holes don't line up on many of the chassis (I sure wish the first guy would have told me that and saved me a lot of time.) My concern about wallowing out the holes to almost twice the recommended size because of the mis-alignment would not compromise the bar. It still looks to me like the greatest stress on the bar occurs in front of those bolts because that is where the rest of the base plate connects but he is familiar with their engineering and I'm not. I'm not looking forward to drilling those holes, however.
3. The top of the frame for the corner bolts can only be accessed by removing the headlight assemblies. He apologized for that not being in the instructions. It was the picture of the top of the frame in the installation instructions (which is no way visible on my VIN) that caused me to really question whether I had the correct bar. He also warned me that there is a cable at that location and is part of the main wiring harness that some installers had drilled through it from the bottom. He also warned me that it takes very small hands to reach in there. Oh, goody. At least I know now.

If the weather cooperates, I'm going to try to do the installation again Saturday. Given the new information that I have, the predicted installation time of 2 hours seems very optimistic.

Some of my faith in Roadmaster's responsiveness has been restored. It is a shame that it took so much effort to invoke it. At least I have a reasonable source of solutions to any more anomalies that I run into.
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Old 12-20-2008, 04:24 AM   #6
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Chasfm,
I've had many dealings with Roadmaster and have been pleased with their customer service. A few years back I inquired about the slop in my old Falcon tow bar and they sent me a bushing kit gratis. Upon reassembling it I had to hammer the extendable bars in, then realizing there was something wrong, I couldn't get them back out (chinese puzzle) When I called them back they admitted I was sent the wrong bushing kit. They sent me a new tow bar and a sticker to mail the old one back so they can use it for demonstration purposes re: wrong bushings. All gratis with an apology. I'm a customer for life.

I appreciate the frustration you experienced with them as many a company has got my goat in the past. If you send the manager a letter praising the good and chastising the bad by name you may feel better and they can deal with the problem directly so it doesn't happen again.
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Old 12-20-2008, 07:21 PM   #7
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Thanks for the feedback, Expo. I hadn't figured out whether I was just "lucky" to have gone through so much with this baseplate or whether Roadmaster's customer service had deteriorated.. or both.

I had already planned to send the letter on the good and the bad but since the baseplate isn't installed yet, I don't think that I know the end of the story. I still have a couple of things to work through.

One of the things that I do for a living is to write technical documents. After you do that for a while, you get a pretty good feel about a document being good or bad from an accuracy standpoint. The installation instructions for 3111-1 are just plain bad - like in not even close to accurate. It appears that they copied parts of other documents to make it. That's fine but you do need to validate the accuracy of the statements when you do that and I'm sure nothing was validated on this one. When you couple that with the normal discrepancies in how the cars are built year to year, you have the ingredients for a difficult to figure out situation. Normally, I'm a "make it work" kind of a guy but I consider a baseplate to be so very critical that I'm not willing to climb out on the limb too far.

I'm sorry but I still cannot get past comparing it to the trailer hitch. Hidden Hitch has all the same kinds of problems car to car that Roadmaster does yet their product slipped right in exactly according to their well written instructions. It was a pleasure to do that job to the same car that is frustrating me on the baseplate installation.
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Old 12-21-2008, 05:51 AM   #8
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I hear ya. I used to make police reports for a living...talk about being accurate and double checking your work. The last thing you want is to be testifying in court and correcting your mistakes at the same time. That sure give the defense attorney an advantage and they wouldn't miss a chance to make you look like a fool.

I'm thinking if the original instructions said words to the effect of "enlarge the hole to fit if needed" and "place shim washers to take up slack" you may think the car manufacturer's parameters were at fault. They seem to be making instructions as they go along. I hope they learn from their mistakes!!

Good luck with RM and let us know what the final outcome is. I'll put it in my fading memory bank.
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Old 12-21-2008, 07:33 PM   #9
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Here is a link to the instructions for this base plate. It is in the "bracket instructions" at the bottom of the page. Read for yourself.

The weather hasn't cooperated at all (30 degrees here now) and I have a wisdom tooth extraction with a dry socket so I'm not anxious to be lying under a car right now, fussing with drilling holes. If the weather breaks for this coming weekend, I'm going to give the installation another try.

P.S. Not one of the bolt sizes in the instructions matches my car. Those bolt sizes do match exactly the instructions for the 6 cylinder base plate - an entirely different, two piece model. Hmmmm...
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Old 12-27-2008, 07:42 PM   #10
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Update:
Today, I repositioned the baseplate, used the existing bolts to mount it to the sub-frame and then drilled two of the new holes in the front part of the sub-frame this afternoon. I discovered that the slots in the two remaining holes were not large enough for the bit that the instructions called for. I down-sided the bit to 1/2" and drilled the holes through the lower bumper support. To drill on up through the top of the bumper support, I need a 9" long 1/2' bit and I bought one of those this evening. I also have to remove a wiring harness tie down on the driver's side. I had hoped to be able to get to the fastener for that tie-down through the hole where the headlight assembly is mounted but I couldn't get that assembly off. I did some research on the Internet this evening, found Saturn lover's website and on it a set of instructions for removing the headlight assembly. Assuming that I can safely get the wiring harness out of the line of the drill bit, I should be able to drill the remaining holes, insert the bolts and finish that part of the installation in less than 1/2 hour.

I'll still have to trim some of the front fascia below the bumper to allow the upper part of the baseplate to be inserted into the slots. After that, it is on to the wiring. I'm expecting (hoping) that the wiring routing will go better and faster than this baseplate installation did. After I'm satisfied with the wiring and I test it with the MH, I'll move the Brakemaster system from our old toad and will be ready for a towing test. I'm going to take it to an empty mall lot early some morning to test it. I'll have DW drive and I'll stay outside and watch her take it through some turns before we hit the road with it. I'm expecting the light wiring to take a couple of hours and I'm certain the Brakemaster move will be about 4 hours. I still have to figure out how to access the cold side of the Vue's brake switch to make that work. I'm hoping that someone on the forum that I found will be able to help me.

If I run into anything else, I'll be sure to post those differences. Otherwise, I figure that I'll soon be good to go.

Charlie
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Old 12-27-2008, 09:00 PM   #11
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Good luck to you Charlie. I wouldn't want to be doing that in the kind of weather you've had out there, particularly after your wisdom tooth extraction.
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Old 12-29-2008, 09:07 PM   #12
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I purchased a pre-owned 07 Grand Vitara and I use a Demco Tow bar. When I saw the installation instruction for the base plate, I decided to let a professional installed do that. On the Grand Vitara, the front bumper has to be taken off etc. According to the installer, to do it right, including the light wiring it is a full day job. And that was for a installer that has done that many times before. I did not want to spend that time and agony to install the base plate and made the installation part of the deal when I purchased the Grand Vitara.
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Old 12-30-2008, 05:18 AM   #13
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Carsten, you make a very valid point that base plates on some vehicles are harder than others. Not everyone wants to tackle a baseplate installation.

For the Vue, (you can read the instructions - I posted a link to them), that did not appear to be the case. Now, that I'm near finished with the install, I can tell you that the work isn't that difficult. The problem is that the baseplate just does not fit well on my particular vehicle. As so often happens when two organizations are involved, Saturn says (and I have the chassis measurements to prove) that there is nothing wrong with the vehicle. Roadmaster says there is nothing wrong with their baseplate (though they would not work with me to actually measure it.)

I would never do the installation according to the instructions provided again. In retrospect, it is far easier to remove the headlights and drill the top of the bumper supports than to try to drill blindly up 9" from the bottom. There is a wiring harness on the driver's side that must be avoided and the easiest way to do that is to remove the fasteners holding it and tie it to the side. IMHO, the only way to do that safely is through the headlight opening.

In fairness, Roadmaster finally contacted me and gave me some assurance that I was not compromising the engineering on the bracket by the adjustments that I was making. I do recognize that mating baseplates to mass produced vehicles is perhaps more art than science. That said, I still consider this to be one of the less satisfactory situations that I've faced in RVing. I cannot imagine what I might have ended up with if I had left this to a "professional."
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Old 12-30-2008, 07:19 PM   #14
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Hi Charles: Sorry to hear about your hassle with installing the baseplate. As usual you worked it through, a lot of good info.
I recently changed my toad to a 2008 Suzuki Grand Vitara. In November, my neighbor and I installed a Blue Ox baseplate and wired the lights with separate sockets in the tail lights. The installation went well. Blue Ox instructions are pretty good on detail.See here
I was very apprehensive about the extent of disassembly needed on my new car, but I had good support from the RV Dealer's shop tech, and from Blue Ox. A big concern was the location of the air bag sensor.(could not find it) A trip to the Suzuki Service manager pinned that down.
(I used one of your earlier recommendations and took a lot of photos as we took things apart) You can see in the instructions the whole front facia as well as the bumper come off and while it's not heavy I think the facia could be damaged if one person tried to handle it. The only thing not mentioned in the instructions was that I had to remove the windshield washer tank to get the drill aligned with the top hole in the frame. (Step13) Both Blue Ox and the tech at Carpenter's Campers stressed the use of red loctite on all the fasteners. With the Blue Ox, fit and alignment was good and did not use existing holes. Having detailed instructions makes a hugh difference.
Take care...
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