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Old 04-20-2012, 12:10 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arch Hoagland View Post
Somewhere in the GVWR number is the federal tax law that comes into play at 26,001 lb. Anything over that changes taxes, or whatever you want to call their fee.
Interesting. I need to find out about that.
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Old 04-20-2012, 12:15 AM   #16
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As I can see no limit pushers on here

I do feel there are some style of chassis that can push past there limits and there are some that are less safe under the limit.

If you are talking about your combo I feel you will reach its limit fast. If you had a Allison Transmission or a splitter you may be ok but from what I know of most domestic 4 spds, 4l80e and 47rh is the gear splits are huge and hp / TQ is low so you will find your self stuck in 2nd gear on a hill going slow which is not a big deal. Except those transmission will not lock the TQ converter till 3rd gear. So you will be stuck in 2nd un locked and the HP of your motor will be disappearing into the un locked converter which will cause you go even slow and the Transmission will keep getting hotter and hotter.

I Have a 1993 Chev that I have swapped a 5.9 cummins 12v with a 47rh. I have an extra deep pan and 2 huge coolers, Billet converter. When loaded at 33k combined with our machine. If I dont drop it into low range I am in a heap of troubble when hitting steap hills. Trans temps will climb to 300deg in very short time.

I have a 2002 Duramax with the 5 spd allison making less hp and it halls that load 10x better due to the way the transmission works.

Stopping is also another huge deal. If your chase has air brakes I would say you could stop ok but if it running on pick up style breaks you could be in trouble in a panic situation.

As far as safety and not hurting others stopping is the most key. I would say get your load on go to a safe spot and practice panic stops and see how it does. I do this with every load. I also always max my trailer breaks out once on the road cursing. What feels right for normal stopping wont be right for a Panic stop. Also alot of controllers will not max the breaks out unless you have them set right. While maxed breaks in normal stopping will cause skidding. Under Panic stop the rig should be trying to out stop the trailer. I feel every trailer on the road with Electric breaks is under breaked for panic stop.

Why do I keep talking about panic. I have been there and slammed into a loading dock at 20mph with trailer and camper. My quick story. Came over a hill in my 1995 Dodge and got caught off guard by a T intersection so I slammed the brakes. My front locked up like i was on Ice. Since I had a buddy in the middle and I was in a panic Down shifting and using the exhaust break no go. Since I had the clutch pushed and the motor was at idle the back brakes would not work well and since I was not slowing the prodigy controller was not adding any trailer brakes. So It felt LIke I had never hit the breaks at all. After this Wreck I told my self I would never own a manual transmission truck with out air brakes. I bought the Duramax after this. I know in this same situation with the Allison down shifting and 4 wheel ABS stopping would have been easy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tropical36 View Post
That would be nice except that the house builders chop up the chassis and modify it. Stretching the wheel base in itself will raise the towing weight capabilities. How much any vehicle can tow involves many factors and wheel base is one of them.
I'm still baffled by how safety is involved here, but I'm sure someone out there can explain it to me in language I can understand. Now, not having brakes on a toad, as many do not, would we the first thing I'd not only question, but could fully explain the ramifications of.
I can see possible overheating of the engine or transmission maybe, but other than that, I can't really find anything to warrant against it. Also the people I know who ought to be working for these builders and seem to know every aspect of these rigs, can't find a good reason either. If I just didn't care, or thought there was nothing more to learn from anyone, I'd just do it, rather than post here, seeking more information.
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Old 04-20-2012, 07:29 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tropical36 View Post
That would be nice except that the house builders chop up the chassis and modify it. Stretching the wheel base in itself will raise the towing weight capabilities. How much any vehicle can tow involves many factors and wheel base is one of them.
I'm still baffled by how safety is involved here, but I'm sure someone out there can explain it to me in language I can understand. Now, not having brakes on a toad, as many do not, would we the first thing I'd not only question, but could fully explain the ramifications of.
I can see possible overheating of the engine or transmission maybe, but other than that, I can't really find anything to warrant against it. Also the people I know who ought to be working for these builders and seem to know every aspect of these rigs, can't find a good reason either. If I just didn't care, or thought there was nothing more to learn from anyone, I'd just do it, rather than post here, seeking more information.
You're right, other than damage to the engine, tranny, axles, brakes or other minor systems, there no "good reason" not to exceed the recommended chassis numbers.

(Dad always advised to never stand downwind in a silly p-ssing contest. over and out.)

safe travels
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Old 04-20-2012, 07:51 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by tropical36 View Post
Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR)

"This is the maximum safe weight of your combined vehicle and trailer. This weight includes all people, luggage, and other material. If your combined towing setup exceeds this weight, your vehicle's engine, transmission, brakes, and so on will be stressed beyond their design limits."

Now with this being said, how many who tow, have weighed their setup and abided by it? Of those who know or think they might be over the limit, do you know by how much? How many have had any real problems, such as things breaking, falling off, burning up...etc?

Just doing a little survey here, while trying to decide whether or not we should pull our Jeep Wrangler JKU. According to my calculations, we'll be about 2000 lbs over with everything loaded to the hilt. I'm not concerned so much with the flatlands, but mountains could be another story, even with brakes on the toad.

Any and all feedback concerning this issue is most welcome.
I also have a '12 JKU which is about 600 lbs heavier than my Saturn Vue was. I've made adjustments by carrying about the equal amount of weight LESS than I used to so I still have about 100 lbs less the max GCVR that I used to. A big difference can be made up by not carrying any water. With each gallon weighing 8.3 lbs, that makes a big difference with a 50+ gallon tank. I've even lost 26 lbs in my effort to get within the max GCVR!
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:01 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golden View Post
I've even lost 26 lbs in my effort to get within the max GCVR!
Now that is funny
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:06 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by SarahW View Post
Interesting. I need to find out about that.
.01 In General. Section 4051(a)(1) imposes a tax on the first retail sale of certain enumerated articles including automobile truck chassis and bodies and truck trailer and semitrailer chassis and bodies. Section 4051(a)(2) provides an exclusion from the tax imposed by § 4051(a)(1) for truck chassis and bodies suitable for use with a vehicle that has a gross vehicle weight (GVW) of 33,000 pounds or less. Similarly, § 4051(a)(3) provides an exclusion for truck trailer and semitrailer chassis and bodies suitable for use with a trailer or semitrailer that has a GVW of 26,000 pounds or less.

with the above said, is the 26000 limit a way to get out of paying that Tax....

Hmmmmm
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Old 04-20-2012, 08:57 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by SarahW View Post
This is from our Fleetwood Owner's Manual. (Not anything "scientific", but common sense.)

Do not exceed Maximum Tongue Weight
as listed on the Federal Certification Tag
or on the tag on the trailer hitch. Heavier
tongue weights can change your vehicle’s
handling and response
, can cause a vehicle
to crash, and will restrict your coverage
under the Ownercare Warranty.


Do not tow anything weighing more than the
GTWlisted on the Federal Certification Tag.
Heavier towed loads can exceed your chassis’
ability to pull and stop the load and
cause a vehicle crash, damage the motor
home structure or drive train,
and restrict
your coverage under the Fleetwood or chassis
manufacturer’s warranty. Changing the
trailer hitch will not increase the tow capacity
of the motor home.


Remember to also consider the carrying capacity of your tires.
Yep, for sure. That's why brakes on the toad, 5000# hitch that's properly attached to the frame unlike some, and no warranty to worry about, since they will always find any excuse.
The tag axle itself does wonders for sway and driving well under interstate speed limits probably says it all.
What's interesting is that the Ford chassis of the same year claims more for GCWR and can't see how any unbiased engineer would agree with that upon detailed inspection.
Anyway, just saying that they're are many many out there and after some extensive study, you can just about tell which ones while going down the road. They all pass me, pulling Hummers and the like, as if I was sitting still and enjoying the scenery, of which I am.
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Old 04-20-2012, 09:38 AM   #22
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Here's my take on this. You are dealing with 2 corporations who do not want to be sued. They are not going to set a weight rating right at the breaking limits or just slighty below. Would you? They also know some people will never weigh their coach and they know people are going to cheat. Vehicle mfg have under rating for years.

That said, I would have no problem exceeding some of the weights, within reason. As far as the 2000lb over on GCWR, I would be less concerned about that as long as the others are within specs. With brakes on the towd, you've eliminated the extra stress on the braking system.

Now you only need to think about hills and the trans. Now if I knew I was going to encounter plenty of 5-7 % grades, I might think twice. I would certainly be monitoring trans temp and engine data on the first several hills. Personally, I avoid these kinds of routes running underweight.

I've never run overweight. We pack light and half our bays are empty when we go for 2-3 months. We always travel with empty tanks and never more than 1/3 tank of water.

I'm not advocating anyone should run overweight and should always avoid it. However, if I really had to, the weight would have to be reasonable and I would have to take everything into consideration before doing so.

My only point here is your RV is not going to fly apart as soon as you exceed a weight rating. What that overage is, well let your conscience be your guide
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:07 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by mc4fun View Post
.01 In General. Section 4051(a)(1) imposes a tax on the first retail sale of certain enumerated articles including automobile truck chassis and bodies and truck trailer and semitrailer chassis and bodies. Section 4051(a)(2) provides an exclusion from the tax imposed by § 4051(a)(1) for truck chassis and bodies suitable for use with a vehicle that has a gross vehicle weight (GVW) of 33,000 pounds or less. Similarly, § 4051(a)(3) provides an exclusion for truck trailer and semitrailer chassis and bodies suitable for use with a trailer or semitrailer that has a GVW of 26,000 pounds or less.

with the above said, is the 26000 limit a way to get out of paying that Tax....

Hmmmmm
Probably not. The 26000 sweet spot is more likely aimed at the market for people who don't want to get the Class B license that many states require for vehicles over 26000 lb.

joe
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:47 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by tropical36 View Post
Yep, for sure. That's why brakes on the toad, 5000# hitch that's properly attached to the frame unlike some, and no warranty to worry about, since they will always find any excuse.
The tag axle itself does wonders for sway and driving well under interstate speed limits probably says it all.
What's interesting is that the Ford chassis of the same year claims more for GCWR and can't see how any unbiased engineer would agree with that upon detailed inspection.
Anyway, just saying that they're are many many out there and after some extensive study, you can just about tell which ones while going down the road. They all pass me, pulling Hummers and the like, as if I was sitting still and enjoying the scenery, of which I am.
I appreciate that you have started this topic and that you are genuinely concerned with safety. I also agree that there are likely more overweight and unsafe rigs on the road than those of us who follow the manufacturers' specs. We have all seen them speeding down the highway...and yes, I mean SPEEDING. You know as well as I that all manufacturers DO include a certain fudge-factor in their designs, just to protect the morons among us. Is there no way you could reduce your cargo capacity to get closer to the GCWR?

I will meander Off-Topic briefly to say that this is one reason that we would probably never consider buying a pre-owned motorhome. The things I read on this board (and several others) about how people jury-rig repairs of everything from wiring to plumbing, run overweight, and generally are CLUELESS about the systems in their expensive RV amazes me. Sometimes I just shake my head at the things I read, and I'm surprised that there are not more reports of RV catastrophe.
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Old 04-20-2012, 10:54 AM   #25
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Probably not. The 26000 sweet spot is more likely aimed at the market for people who don't want to get the Class B license that many states require for vehicles over 26000 lb.

joe
I thought about that, too...since Texas is one of those states. However it appears that the 26,000 lb threshold has implications in the tax laws as well. What a coincidence...
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Old 04-20-2012, 03:52 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by SarahW View Post
I appreciate that you have started this topic and that you are genuinely concerned with safety. I also agree that there are likely more overweight and unsafe rigs on the road than those of us who follow the manufacturers' specs. We have all seen them speeding down the highway...and yes, I mean SPEEDING. You know as well as I that all manufacturers DO include a certain fudge-factor in their designs, just to protect the morons among us. Is there no way you could reduce your cargo capacity to get closer to the GCWR?

I will meander Off-Topic briefly to say that this is one reason that we would probably never consider buying a pre-owned motorhome. The things I read on this board (and several others) about how people jury-rig repairs of everything from wiring to plumbing, run overweight, and generally are CLUELESS about the systems in their expensive RV amazes me. Sometimes I just shake my head at the things I read, and I'm surprised that there are not more reports of RV catastrophe.
Sarah....
I always welcome your posts and have considered reducing GVW to compensate, but it's gonna have to be the DW's stuff, not mine, whaddaya think?
As for buying new, we're the opposite on that. I like for others to take the depreciation and getting all the recalls and warranty work done for me, if any. All my mods are for the best and done right. Things the manufacture should have done in the first place but couldn't afford to and remain competitive. An RV is a package of many things, so changing and/or adding can be a good thing and perfectly acceptable.
When building hot rod cars, we always used the best from different manufactures that had been tried and proven to be the most durable, long lasting and cost effective.
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Old 04-20-2012, 04:14 PM   #27
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Here's my take on this. You are dealing with 2 corporations who do not want to be sued. They are not going to set a weight rating right at the breaking limits or just slighty below. Would you? They also know some people will never weigh their coach and they know people are going to cheat. Vehicle mfg have under rating for years.

That said, I would have no problem exceeding some of the weights, within reason. As far as the 2000lb over on GCWR, I would be less concerned about that as long as the others are within specs. With brakes on the towd, you've eliminated the extra stress on the braking system.

Now you only need to think about hills and the trans. Now if I knew I was going to encounter plenty of 5-7 % grades, I might think twice. I would certainly be monitoring trans temp and engine data on the first several hills. Personally, I avoid these kinds of routes running underweight.

I've never run overweight. We pack light and half our bays are empty when we go for 2-3 months. We always travel with empty tanks and never more than 1/3 tank of water.

I'm not advocating anyone should run overweight and should always avoid it. However, if I really had to, the weight would have to be reasonable and I would have to take everything into consideration before doing so.

My only point here is your RV is not going to fly apart as soon as you exceed a weight rating. What that overage is, well let your conscience be your guide
Appreciate your in depth response and we do think alike, which is more out of the box than average, making us none....YES SIR... people of sorts..
I asked an MD today, why a radiologist would write such a gloomy report, when he wasn't at all sure and then proven wrong. He said it's called CYA ... cover your a.... and for a lawyer who might one day be reading it.
As for the hills, yes I agree and have climbed everything without a problem, but not pulling anything. Worse comes to worse, someone will have to drive the toad for a while, which is done with a lot of them anyway that have inadequate cooling systems.
Your thoughts on weight are like mine also, as I wouldn't want it in excess on the suspension and wheels, (GVWR). As for pulling, I can't believe some of these fiver's I see. One person is telling me that he pulled his all over and in some of the worst in the Rockies, with never a problem. He eventually found out that even though he was good with both units in GVWR, he was 3500 lbs over with GCWR.
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Old 04-21-2012, 10:55 AM   #28
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My thanks to all who have contributed so far. A lot of different points of view have been pointed out here, including politics and economics which I welcome, but really didn't expect.
To sum it up and not only from just this forum, the whole thing sounds like.....try and see if you like it. You'll know soon enough if it can handle it comfortably and also if it's safe enough.
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