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Old 02-03-2017, 08:11 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kro1957 View Post
After reading your information and looking more into the Protect-A-Tow, this looks like the way to go for me.

Our motorhome has the original mud flap with name on the back of it but the owner highly recommended we not use it for the reasons I mentioned in my original post.

Aerodynamic Drag

Causes more damage than protection

Added Weight

Since it was our first motorhome and he actually owned a Campground and had more knowledge about DP than I did I took his advice. The Jeep I purchased was from a Lady who she and her husband had it behind their coach and it has some rock chips on if from towing so I want to not contribute to that. Really looks like this Protect-A-Tow is the way to go. Any of you have leads on best price place to go? Looks like you go right to the manufacturer $219 + SH. From what I see looks like one size fits all..
Pretty much one size fits all, unless you have an extra length tow bar. Have used Protect-A-Tow for 9 years now on 2 different coaches and 3 different toads. Original just bit the dust, too many holes and scrapes from the previous coach drop hitch and steep driveways. Just bought replacement direct from manufacturer and that $219 + S&H was the price. They're Canadian so price may vary with the US vs Canadian dollar exchange.
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Old 02-03-2017, 09:28 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kro1957 View Post
After reading your information and looking more into the Protect-A-Tow, this looks like the way to go for me.

Our motorhome has the original mud flap with name on the back of it but the owner highly recommended we not use it for the reasons I mentioned in my original post.

Aerodynamic Drag

Causes more damage than protection

Added Weight

Since it was our first motorhome and he actually owned a Campground and had more knowledge about DP than I did I took his advice. The Jeep I purchased was from a Lady who she and her husband had it behind their coach and it has some rock chips on if from towing so I want to not contribute to that. Really looks like this Protect-A-Tow is the way to go. Any of you have leads on best price place to go? Looks like you go right to the manufacturer $219 + SH. From what I see looks like one size fits all..
I have to ask the question. When so many including myself have stated that once we removed the big flap, our toads or trailers had no more stone chips, why would you want to spend a couple hundred dollars for something that most likely isn't needed??? Notice that toddb had to replace his 9 year old Protrct-a-tow because of damage from the hitch and steep driveways and not from stones or other debri hitting it.
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Old 02-04-2017, 03:20 AM   #31
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I have both front and rear mud flaps with the monogrammed Full length rear flap, and was definitely chipping my toad....a lot! Installed Pro-Tect-A-Tow and after 20k travel miles.....very few chips on the toad and none on the coach!! Definitely worth it!
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Old 02-04-2017, 06:41 AM   #32
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I have to ask the question. When so many including myself have stated that once we removed the big flap, our toads or trailers had no more stone chips, why would you want to spend a couple hundred dollars for something that most likely isn't needed??? Notice that toddb had to replace his 9 year old Protrct-a-tow because of damage from the hitch and steep driveways and not from stones or other debri hitting it.
I stated that after I had a big flap installed I had to clean the rear cap less often. All MH's may not react the same with or with out a big flap.

The same as all MH's don't react the same with a Protect-a-Tow installed.
toddb said all the damage was from his previous MH not his present one.
I'm going to guess his previous MH was a gas one with a lot of hang over.

My previous MH was gas and I had to put some steel rollers on the back of it to keep from breaking the safety chains pulling a trailer on steep driveways etc. I got tired of carrying spare repair links for the chain.

My present MH for the last 14 years hasn't hit the hitch once in any steep driveways even with having a bigger drop hitch on it.


Your statement of "that most likely isn't needed" says it all.

The 9 year old Protact-a-Tow cost todbd $24.33 a year to use or less then 10 gal of fuel a year. He may have spent more then that for 1 meal at a restaurant during the year.

By all the post you can see not all can agree on a big flap or not a big flap. But some do recommend protecting their toad in some way.

So everyone can use what works best for them for $0 or hundreds of $$$.
After towing a trailer or toad for over 30 years behind a MH, I know what is best for mine. And can be different then the way of what others do.
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Old 02-04-2017, 07:15 AM   #33
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I didn't get an answer to the first time I asked this question. So please allow me to ask it again.

Does all of this also apply to someone using a dolly?
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Old 02-04-2017, 09:08 AM   #34
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Does any of this apply to a dolly-tow? That might be hard to assess. Which is part of the problem. We've got no controlled studies.....only anecdotal information based on separate 'studies and personal observations." Only personal experience may tell.

I don't have an big "A". Don't have a toad. So what I'll add is observation based and a bit of science.

First, an RV is a big fat box with a 'bluff' rear end. Bluff back anythings create huge negative pressure areas behind them when the air moves around them or they move through the air. That negative pressure 'pulls' against the forward motion of the RV and is a significant component of 'drag,' requiring more power and fuel at speeds above about 55mph.

Square back RVs generally don't have meaningful aero aids to lessen this effect.

As it moves down the highway, air flows under the RV and increases velocity and lowers it's pressure relative to the ambient pressure around the vehicle. The venturi effect. That high velocity air reaches the rear end of the RV and suddenly slows and tries to return to normal pressure. But it struggles because of the big negative pressure bubble attached to the bluff back.

If you hang anything.... particularly a full width flap low to the ground, across the rear of bluff back vehicle you make it harder for this fast moving, low pressure, air flow to return to normal. It is really 'damming' that air flow. If the flap is rigid enough, the air velocity is increased again as it tries to 'squeeze' between the flap and the road surface. Again, pressure is significantly lowered. So, three things happen: Some of the air spills around the side of the 'air dam' and fights with the turbulent air streaming past the RV; the dam provides air resistance (much like the flap on an airplane wing) requiring more power); and, that now very much lowered air pressure 'vacuum's the road surface picking up all kinds of debris and launching it into the low pressure area behind the RV. Thus, you find all kinds of chips, dings, dents and light debris scattered over the toad. The faster you go... the more powerful the vacuum effect ... the more crap it will suck up off the road surface. {If you have trouble visualizing this, think of the shape of an upright carpet sweeper. They have a 'bar' or 'brush' near the leading edge of the head right in front of the intake duct and beater. It's designed seal that space and to create a higher negative pressure to suck up crap from the carpet.)

IMHO, it would be better without a 'flap' and trust that the 'mud/stone' guards behind the wheels will take care of 99% of the business. And, if you look at semi trailers, they actually use a center 'wedge' in front of the rear axles and a fairing to smooth the air flow and return it to the negative pressure bubble and decrease the inherent drag. They do not use a full width flap. Many cars and light vehicles use a stylized 'diffuser' to gently return this fast moving, low pressure air to the 'bubble' behind the vehicle.

As for MPG. A FWF, works like the flap on an airplane. They increase drag and lift when deployed. A valuable tool. With a FWF, you are essentially running a 'flap' and near 90 degrees down in a fast moving low pressure air flow. That's got to hurt. How much? Probably about .5 to 1% increase in fuel consumption. Does that make a difference? For sure, airplanes don't fly with the flaps down except in special circumstance.

Day to day MPG, would be within the realm of statistical variation and not really noticeable to the average RVer. However, taking the lesson from over the highway semis, a .5 - 1% increase in fuel economy adds up over 10's of thousands of miles.

I did some back of the napkin calculations using my neighbor's big, fat Class A gasser. He gets about 5-7 MPG on a 'good' day with a full with flap. Mostly a lot less. Without the added drag of a flap, he'd get maybe 5.5 to 7.25. Where it adds up is at the gas pump. Slightly increased range and less $$$$$. (Proving once again.... that 1% of nuttin' is still nuttin'..... } If dirt does or does not collect on the flat back of a bluff vehicle, its largely due to the shape of the edges of the 'box' and not due to the FWF.

Vehicles like semi trailers have 'knife edge' 90 degree edges top & sides. This does not help smooth the laminar flow along the sides and top in to the low pressure 'bubble' dragging behind the trailer. What you really want is large radius curved edges so that the laminar flow follows the curve and blends into the low pressure area as best and as smoothly as possible.

Going back to the question. The dolly raises the front of the toad and places it a bit farther behind the vehicle. Any debris would likely end up in the grill, radiator, head light area rather than on the hood & windshield. An air dam, close into the front of the toad would probably help. OTH, with out a FWF, you are probably not going to be vacuuming the floor and picking up all kinds of crap to start with... Also, being a bit farther behind the RV, it may help smooth some of that turbulent air streaming behind the RV.
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Old 02-04-2017, 09:56 AM   #35
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Not much experience yet but on our first trip and with no tow I had to run over part of a tire in a construction zone. That bent the rear flap which looked to have sweep the tread from the lane. That tread did light surface damage to bottom of coach and I hate to think what it would have done to a toad. Prior to this after reading here I was going to have the flap removed to tow but instead had it replaced.

If I start seeing chips on the toad I will go with one of the secondary protectors. Since the flap is providing a little protection to toad undercarriage. (Granted not much but a little at least in special cases.)

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Old 02-04-2017, 11:48 AM   #36
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Wow Old Crows, I'm glad I didn't ask you what time it is?

That was some serious information and I thank you for it. A question was also asked earlier wanting to know if this information pertains to a gasser and diesel coaches as well?

I've read different threads on this subject now and again and they all tend to end the same way. Half say take everything off as others says, nope keep em on?

I think what I'll do is take em off for half the trip and put them on for the other half... That should do it right?
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Old 02-04-2017, 03:19 PM   #37
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Wyo, sure give it a try. Just remember you only two data points.. And lots of variables.

Personally, I'd keep it simple and go flapless. It's just another thing to deal with on the road.

Should not matter gas or oil burner...front engine or pusher. It's all about "shape" and the aerodynamics. Some "pushers" have side intake radiators. Clever. And, they generally duct out the bottom of the RV into that low pressure fast moving airstream under the RV. There's a lot of heat in that radiator exhaust on a cooking engine. Not sure I'd want to be trapping all that heat in front of a "flap." Might be better to let it dissipate in the air flow behind the RV.

FWIW, keeping the rear panel waxed or polished my help reduce dirt and dust build up. If you have ever ridden in a convertable or bed of a pickup, you know the air flow is back to front. Same with the RV. Air flows over the top; around the sides and tries to fill in that big negative pressure bubble. Everything light gets blown against the back panel and sticks like Velcro. If you can make it "smoother" and reduce its,"stickiness" with a wax or detailing spray-on/wipe-off product, it will help keep it cleaner. I use Final Detail. Also REJEX. Rejex is a little harder to use. Heck, even Pledge furniture polish or Endust will work to smooth the surface, make it less sticky and kill most of the electrostatic attraction.

Same with those front surfaces that collect all the bug smush and dirt.

Although you didn't ask, turbodiesels get better efficiency and performance on heavier vehicles. Maybe 40- 50% better than a gasser. But it comes at the price of higher upfront costs.
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Old 02-08-2017, 07:39 AM   #38
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IMHO, and having studied flow dynamics a LONG time ago in college

Laminar flow is the gold standard, but we have SO many 'obstructions' on the sides of our coaches that it would be almost impossible to smooth out the sides...
one benefit might be the 'trailer tails' that the semi's use to limit the impact of the drag caused by the air flow collapsing right at the back of the coach... but there would be considerations regarding engine cooling, clearances in front of the toad, etc...
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