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Old 06-14-2011, 06:29 PM   #29
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It's the liability. If your not afraid of loosing everything you have over an accident if your toad breaks away,have at it. What would you think if a toad broke away,crossed over and hit your Grandkids head on? . I know, it only happens to somebody else.

Also, what's the difference from towing a trailer and a toad? You would have brakes on a 3000# trailer but you wouldn't on a 4500# toad?
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:30 PM   #30
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We have been towing our explorer for ten yrs with our Brake Buddy. I wouldn't think of leaving without it. You can feel the difference, and peace of mind.
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Old 06-14-2011, 07:59 PM   #31
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I have a Patriot brake purchased with my Blue Ox tow bar and accessories. I don't notice any difference when towing my wrangler whether I use it or not. However, I plan to use it since I have it and no big deal to install. Maybe it will make a difference some day?
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:08 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by two2go View Post
Are you talking to anybody else? In my 17 years of motorhome travel, I've only encountered a handful who didn't have aux brakes, mainly small utility Jeeps and old Saturn cars.
If you drive the speed limit and follow to close to stop safely; then by all means if it makes you feel good, put on the brake buddy.
I don't drive the speed limit, and I keep a safe distance from the traffic in front of me.
I'm 78 and have been accident free my entire life; I must be doing something right.
And I must not be camping in the same parks as the preceding posts; I repeat; I have yet to meet some one with a brake buddy.
Not that I have anything against them.

Drive safely; and may all you trips be accident free.
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:21 AM   #33
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I don't drive the speed limit, and I keep a safe distance from the traffic in front of me.
That all sounds fine - until the kid pulls out of the service station driveway right in front of you without even looking, or whips around you and immediately slams on the brakes to duck into McDonald's.

Things happen in life that we can't control - all we can do is prepare for them to the best of our ability. That, in my opinion, is what toad brakes are all about.


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Old 06-15-2011, 10:28 AM   #34
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Use a supplemental brake ever since I started towing 4 down. I just cannot accept the argument that is not required, just cheap insurance.
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:29 AM   #35
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I've got a brake system for my toad. Had the M&G brake system installed since I live close to the main shop. Great brake system as you only have to hook up one air line and you're ready to go. M&G Engineering
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:30 AM   #36
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That all sounds fine - until the kid pulls out of the service station driveway right in front of you without even looking, or whips around you and immediately slams on the brakes to duck into McDonald's.

Things happen in life that we can't control - all we can do is prepare for them to the best of our ability. That, in my opinion, is what toad brakes are all about.


Rusty
No argument there;
To be accident free you MUST be aware of everything thats going on around you; including the nut case that slams his brakes on in front of you; and the kid that stops at McDonalds.
Have a nice day
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Old 06-15-2011, 10:33 AM   #37
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At request of DriVer, this is an elaboration of a portion of the seminar I presented at the 2007 iRV2 National Rally in Branson, MO. This is technical information and I've tried to present as simply as I can, but what makes sense to me may not make sense to you. So, feel free to ask for any clarification.

I will start out with one of the illustrations used to introduce the topic. A man and his wife were traveling though Texas in a Diesel pusher pulling a Jeep Grand Cherokee. He was traveling at the speed limit and was maintaining a safe distance when traffic suddenly shut down. He immediately jumped on the brakes at full bore. As he began to rapidly decelerate, he could feel the Jeep begin to push harder and harder on the back of the coach. At the last second before impact, he swerved to the left to avoid a collision with the tractor trail stopped in front of him; but only half of the motorhome cleared the trailer. The trailer cut through the passenger side of the coach like butter, taking his wife's life on impact. Since there had been numerous accidents of this type in a relatively short period of time, Michigan State University's accident reconstruction team was dispatched to see the cause of the accident, as well as to see if there were any measures that could have been taken to prevent this tragedy. The head of the project (who was in contact with SMI) concluded that if the towed vehicle had been using a supplemental braking system, the coach would have stopped at least one foot before impact rather than four feet after impact.

I am sure that the first question that comes to mind is "Why couldn't a forty-footer with air brakes and an exhaust brake handle the weight of a 4000 lb. towed? It is still well under my GCWR."¯ I believe the definitions of the weight ratings will help clear up some of the confusion.


Dry Weight- The basic weight of the coach. No fuel, water, passengers, cargo, etc.– just the "nuts and bolts"¯

Curb Weight- The "ready-to-roll"¯ weight of the coach. Includes all fluids and a full tank of fuel. Does not take into account passengers or cargo.

Gross-Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)- The maximum amount of weight the coach's chassis can handle (air bags/springs, shocks, brakes, etc.). This weight includes fuel, water, passengers, cargo, trailer tongue weight, food, and everything else. Most of the time your engine can comfortably pull more than you GVWR.

Gross Trailer Weight Rating (GTWR)- The total loaded-down weight of a trailer. The GTWR includes the weight of the trailer as well as all cargo and fluids on board. The static tongue load must be 10-15% of the total GTWR. This is the number used to determine which class of hitch and tow bar (Class III, Class IV, etc.) is necessary.

Gross-Combined Weight Rating (GCWR)- The combination of the GVWR and the GTWR.

*To find the maximum towable weight rating subtract the GVWR from the GCWR.


Here are some common misconceptions:

1) While it is true GCWR minus the GVWR is the maximum amount of weight a vehicle can pull, it is not the amount of weight the vehicle's chassis can stop. A SAE Class IV hitch has a weight rating of 10,000 lbs., but most chassis manufactures specify that any trailer over 1,000-1,500 lbs. (depending on the manufacturer) must be equipped with a braking system.

2) Supplemental brakes are necessary even if the total combined weight does not exceed the GVWR.

Common logic would say that 3500 lb. towed vehicle would put 3500 lbs. of force back of the coach. Remember, the 3,500 lbs. is measured vertically, not horizontally. At rest on flat ground, the 3,500 lb. vehicle is putting 0 lbs. of net force on the coach. So what is all the fuss about? A 3500 lbs. vehicle does not always put 3500 lb. of net force on the back of the coach. The amount of direct force is directly proportional to the rate of motion.

Newton's laws of motion explain this phenomenon. Here is how the laws are normally summed up:

1) The Law of Inertia – An object in motion will stay in motion until it is acted upon by a net force.
Application- The towed vehicle will stay in motion until something stops it (e.g. friction, gravity, brakes, brick wall, etc.)

2) The Law of Acceleration – The force of an object is equal to the mass times the acceleration
Application- The force of the towed vehicle on the back of the coach is the weight times the rate of deceleration.

3) The Law of Reciprocal Forces – For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction
Application- The inertial mass generated by the towed vehicle will equally increase the braking effort of the coach.


Law number two is the key to understanding what happens to the coach in a panic stop. Newton stated it like this (translated from Latin): "The rate of change of momentum of a body is proportional to the resultant force acting on the body and is in the same direction."¯ Think of it like this, would you rather get hit in the face by a baseball that I tossed at you, or a MLB fastball? According to the "I don't need a brake" mentality, they should feel the same. It is, after all, the same ball, isn't it? What changed? The rate of motion.

This law states that the force of an object is equal to its mass times its acceleration (F=ma). Another common misconception is the definition of acceleration. If a object is traveling at 60 mph at point A and 60 mph one second later at point B, its acceleration is not 60 mph, it is 0 mph per second. If an object is traveling at 60 mph at point A and 40 mph one second later at point C, its acceleration is 20 mph per second. Acceleration is defined as "the rate of change of velocity per unit of time."¯ The faster you try to stop, the higher the value "a"¯ (acceleration) is multiplied by the static mass "m,"¯ making the force "F"¯ much higher. The ability to decelerate depends on the coach, the towed vehicle, and the weather conditions, but an average value would be 2.7 times the static weight of towed vehicle in a panic stop starting at 60 mph. This means the afore mentioned 3,500 lbs. towed in a panic stop towed has the same amount of force as a 9,470 lbs. towed in a medium stop.

Simply stated, it comes down to this: When you are trying to stop in a panic, you are not only trying to stop faster, but you are also trying to stop more weight.


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Old 06-15-2011, 10:51 AM   #38
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BrakeBuddy incorrectly continues to lump towed vehicles with trailers so they can sell their product.
In Virginia,

http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/pdf/dmv109.pdf

page 13 states "trailers and TOWED VEHICLES" in the category over 3000# requiring a braking system.

They are not incorrect with respect to Virginia's laws and, I suspect many other states.

Methinks there might have been a similar silly pro-con argument back when gun makers started putting a safety on their product??
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:24 PM   #39
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I have an Air Force One braking system and it recently helped me avoid would could have been a horrible collision. Thank God for my braking system on my 6600# toad.
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Old 06-15-2011, 07:30 PM   #40
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The laws of physics don't really pay much attention to the laws of man......

Personally, I would no more pull a 4500 lb toad with no brakes than I would pull our 16000 lb 5th wheel with no brakes.

Rusty
DITTO.

Plus, the dinghy brakes may only stop you 6" shorter, and that may make the difference between stopping and having an accident. Also, a tow bar/brackets can come loose and you launch an uncontrolled 4500# missile. A break away system will energize the dinghy brakes and stop it.

You cannot use cost as a criteria in doing this job safely.

ken
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Old 06-15-2011, 08:52 PM   #41
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“Start at the hearing and work backwards!”

The immortal words of an instructor of mine who taught a course related to aviation regulations. Many of those regulations seemed to be designed more to make one uncomfortable if anything bad happened rather than keeping that bad thing from happening.

There is ABSOLUTE physical science that demonstrates your stopping distance WILL BE GREATER without a functioning braking system installed in your towed vehicle. Regardless of the regulatory requirement, your STOPPING DISTANCE will be greater.

So, imagine this conversation at the “hearing”:
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Prosecutor: Mr. Jones, did you have an auxiliary braking system installed in your toad?

Defendant: No, sir.

Prosecutor: Mr. Jones, prior to the collision, did you attempt a MAXIMUM EFFORT stop to avoid the collision?

Defendant: Yes, sir.

Prosecutor: Were you successful?

Defendant: No, sir.

Prosecutor: Do you agree, as shown by expert witness Brent Schuck of SMI Manufacturing, Inc., that IF you had an auxiliary braking system installed in your toad, your stopping distance would have been reduced enough that the collision WOULD NOT have occurred?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikron View Post

Simply stated, it comes down to this: When you are trying to stop in a panic, you are not only trying to stop faster, but you are also trying to stop more weight.


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Defendant: Yes, sir.

Prosecutor: Mr. Jones, can you explain WHY you chose NOT to install an auxiliary braking system in your toad?

Defendant: Well…
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That same instructor always suggested to us that, “Your hearing will improve at the hearing!”

Take care,
Stu
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Old 06-16-2011, 10:04 AM   #42
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I feel much better with the braking system on my toad than without it. It is not even a heavy car but I can tell the difference in the stopping distance with it installed than without it.
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