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Old 09-24-2019, 03:39 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by dpinvidic View Post
Sorry for the late reply, I have towed about a thousand miles so far with no problems. Supposedly the 2019 Cherokee has the towing restriction removed from the manual. So I'm hoping whatever fix is in the Cherokee is also in the Grand Cherokee.
Thanks. Here's hoping you are correct.

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FCA has not incorporated a fix for the Grand Cherokee wobble. They have actually stopped looking into the issue.
Lass, I suspect that if they ever do make any changes to lessen the affect on the Grand Cherokee, we will NOT hear about it. That would be very difficult for them to announce, from a liability perspective, since they have already publicly made it clear that they believe there is no issue other than individual isolated cases. The best possible scenario for FCA would be if the "issue" simply fades away.
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Old 09-24-2019, 05:11 PM   #170
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New Plan - Jeep Grand Cherokee EPS Wobble

After trading my 6 month old Summit for the newer Wrangler JLUR, Iím left with one frustration.

Since FMCA was directly involved with my list of wobble owners and published and article relating to the GC wobble, they did not make any mention of the problem in the FMCA towing guide. Shame that buyers are still getting the wrong impression and thinking that all is good.
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Old 09-24-2019, 07:05 PM   #171
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After trading my 6 month old Summit for the newer Wrangler JLUR, I’m left with one frustration.

Since FMCA was directly involved with my list of wobble owners and published and article relating to the GC wobble, they did not make any mention of the problem in the FMCA towing guide. Shame that buyers are still getting the wrong impression and thinking that all is good.
I understand your frustration, but I don't know how else FMCA could have handled the situation. The last "official" word from FCA to Johnston was that they are no longer looking into the complaint and they consider the GC suitable for towing without any modification. That put FMCA "in the middle" between FCA's position and the iRV2 owner's position. If they had mentioned the problem in the FMCA towing guide, that would have been opposed to FCA's "official postion" as well as the Motorhome Magazine's Dingy Guide. That would have left a tons of members very confused. FMCA almost has to go along with the "official position" unitil FCA changes it (which seems unlikely at this point).

Like I said above, I think FCA will fix it at some point and just keep the whole thing about the WK2 models quiet. I'm certainly not trying to defend their position if that's what they do - just trying to see things through their eyes.
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Old 09-25-2019, 10:36 AM   #172
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Rob, I have a list of owners who experienced the wobble in the first week of towing and others where it didnít happen for 15000 miles. The most important thing to know is that if it does occur, you will need to come to a complete stop. Check you connections and continue on your trip. Most likely it will Good from there. Unfortunately, you wonít know when or if it will happen again.


Lass, we have communicated several times before, so here is an update.

Bought new 2016 GC Limited July 2016, automatic tranny, no modifications other than adding the Roadmaster baseplate, Charge It via the 7/6 cable and SMI Stay and Play brake system. We are active travelers, having crossed the county several times so we are in that 15,000 - 20,000 group with no problems. In fact, and I hope I donít jinx anything but, we left Florida in April for Vermont, then Boston, on to Seattle. We are currently in Los Angeles headed east via Bryce and Zion, this trip will be around 7,000 total miles. During our trips we have seen all kinds of roads from newly paved, pot holed so much that we had to slow to 20 MPH, wash board and gravel/sand.

It is my opinion that the problem is related to mods/options or the voltage level (keeping it fully charged) in the GC. I sometimes go multiple days without removing the toad or even starting it while we are on the road, just get a pull through site and drive away in the morning. I am sure if we compile a list of mods/options that we can find a common thread. Oh yes, one other thing, we are about to replace the original Michelinís, the tread is getting worn. The odo shows 27,000 but I estimate the tire wear is double that.
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Old 09-25-2019, 12:41 PM   #173
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Jeep issues need to be disclosed....

Seems to me that those that produce the list of "towable vehicles", like Good Sam, eTrailer, or others should be contacted and the "wobble" should be disclosed in their reviews of the Grand Cherokee
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Old 09-25-2019, 01:30 PM   #174
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Lass, we have communicated several times before, so here is an update.

Bought new 2016 GC Limited July 2016, automatic tranny, no modifications other than adding the Roadmaster baseplate, Charge It via the 7/6 cable and SMI Stay and Play brake system. We are active travelers, having crossed the county several times so we are in that 15,000 - 20,000 group with no problems. In fact, and I hope I donít jinx anything but, we left Florida in April for Vermont, then Boston, on to Seattle. We are currently in Los Angeles headed east via Bryce and Zion, this trip will be around 7,000 total miles. During our trips we have seen all kinds of roads from newly paved, pot holed so much that we had to slow to 20 MPH, wash board and gravel/sand.

It is my opinion that the problem is related to mods/options or the voltage level (keeping it fully charged) in the GC. I sometimes go multiple days without removing the toad or even starting it while we are on the road, just get a pull through site and drive away in the morning. I am sure if we compile a list of mods/options that we can find a common thread. Oh yes, one other thing, we are about to replace the original Michelinís, the tread is getting worn. The odo shows 27,000 but I estimate the tire wear is double that.
The "common thread" you mention is simply an inherent lack of vibration damping in vehicles equipped with EPS (electronic power steering) . It's not just a 'jeep' thing, there are incidents with GM and Ford vehicles which have been reported. This lack of damping doesn't cause vibration, it just doesn't counter the wobble when some external 'bump' starts it up. With older vehicles that have hydraulic power steering, the vibration damping is in the hydraulics.

The "fix" for the early Cherokees ('14 to'18) was to activate the software in the EPS which had been designed to counter wobble; a condition which FCA knew about since 2012, when they received a patent for that software. This is the same software which normally runs as the Cherokee is driven down the road.

For 2019, Jeep did something different in their EPS; one owner has confirmed that the 2019 Cherokee steering rack is different than prior models; has a new part number. Whether the new design steering rack has built-in vibration damping or has another method of countering wobble via software I do not know, but I'd sure like to find out.

Safe travels; hope you continue to be "wobble free".
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Old 09-25-2019, 02:39 PM   #175
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Dave (DrDaveMA). Thanks for coming back to the thread and I hope that your luck continues. We donít know if or when a wobble will occur but we do know that approximately 40 forum members have experienced the problem and FCA is ignoring it.

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Old 09-25-2019, 11:23 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by DrDaveMA View Post
...It is my opinion that the problem is related to mods/options or the voltage level (keeping it fully charged) in the GC. I sometimes go multiple days without removing the toad or even starting it while we are on the road, just get a pull through site and drive away in the morning. I am sure if we compile a list of mods/options that we can find a common thread.
Obviously, the root cause of the wobble problem is the lack of dampening in the all-electric steering system since 2016. But since the wobble in the Grand Cherokee happens so infrequently, you could well be correct in that these variables could exacerbate the tendency for the wobble to occur.

I have a slightly different take. See my thoughts below...
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Old 09-25-2019, 11:44 PM   #177
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Preventing the wobble on grand cherokees

I've been doing a lot of thinking about this issue on the Grand Cherokee (WK2; 2016 and later). After reading both long threads here on iRV2, and whatever I could find on TRVN; and following a recent email conversation with John Johnston (Associate Editor, Family RVing), who has been looking into this matter on behalf of FMCA members, I've come up with some apparent observations about the problem, as follows...

FIRST A NOTE OF APOLOGY HERE FOR THE LONG POST THAT IS ABOUT TO FOLLOW.

1. The problem generally only occurs on vehicles with all electronic power steering system, and is a result of no dampening of the steering system while towing. This one is a given.

2. Unlike the KL models, with the WK2 models the occurrences are reported to happen, almost without exception, only while making harsh turns, on uneven pavement, at slow speeds.

3. The occurrence on the Grand Cherokee is relatively rare. Despite all the discussion here on iRV2, the wobble issue is a much more prevalent issue on the Cherokees (KL), and even the Chevy Equinox/GMC Terrain, than it is on the Grand Cherokees. As an example, FMCA published an article on the issue in the Jan 2018 member magazine, asking for member input. They received only 22 replies (including those from iRV2 members) as compared with well over 100 for the Equinox/Terrain. Given the number of Grand Cherokees being towed, the number of wobbling occurrences are relatively insignificant (except to those actually having the problem).

4. Generally speaking, the problem usually does not occur until the vehicle has been towed for several months - in many cases as much as a year or more. This is evidenced by the fact that there were very few occurrences reported in 2016 - it wasn't until 2017 that they started happening, with any regularity, to owners of 2016 vehicles. Likewise, we have not heard of many incidences occurring with 2018 vehicles (FMCA has only two reports), and no reports yet (that I have seen) on 2019 vehicles. (There are a few exceptions to this that we've seen in some posts.)

5. FCA obviously does not consider this to be a "universal problem" for WK2 models. Rather, they maintain that the occurrences are isolated incidences. And they have said as much on more than one occasion. Unlike what they did with the KL vehicles, FCA has abandoned it's investigation into wobbling on WK2 models, stating officially that they consider this model suitable for recreational towing as is. And this is so despite the fact that they are now into the 5th model year of Grand Cherokees with all electronic steering. We should not assume that they have made this decision lightly, (or out of greed,) given the overwhelming liability exposure they would otherwise face. (I realize that some GC owners have been told otherwise by certain FCA officials, but in fact all such reports of a pending "fix" have proven not to be true.) Another case for this observation is that the dealers know NOTHING about the problem for Grand Cherokees. One would reasonably assume that, if FCA were seriously reviewing the issue, that they would be seeking input from dealers in the field.

So, here is my hypothesis...

We all know that the root of the problem is the change to all electronic steering in model year 2016. That said, given the observations outlined above, I believe that the likelihood of experiencing the problem can be exacerbated by the existence of one or any number of secondary conditions. There are several conditions that could affect how a car tows while subject to harsh steering forces applied a to a stiff unpowered steering system with no dampening - especially at slow speeds while making harsh turns on uneven pavement. If that is true, then it is also true that we should be able to significantly lessen the likelihood of experiencing the harmonic wobbling problem, by avoiding those conditions, either singularly or in combination.

Accordingly, here are some things that we have control over, and I intend to do (with as much good faith as I can muster), to lessen the probability of invoking the wobbling affect at any given time. These are not listed in any priority, because it would take some serious study under controlled conditions to determine which of them has the greatest effect. But I seriously believe that by doing all of these things, we have a very good chance of reducing the probability of experiencing the wobbling phenomenon, to very close to zero.

1. Tow Bar: Make sure your tow bar is as close to level as possible. If you can't get it level, then make sure the car attachment point is slightly lower than the motorhome. A sloping tow bar may have the effect of exerting more downward pressure and enhancing the tire grip on the road. A rising tow bar may have the undesired effect of slightly lifting the front of the car. Make sure that both the motorhome and the car are at normal travel ride height before checking this. (Thanks to Big_Boy for this thought.)

Note about tow bars and base plates... All three major tow bar companies make good tow bars and base plates. As long as your tow bar is rated comfortably higher than the weight of your [loaded] car I don't believe it matters (with regard to this issue) which one you use. As for base plates, they are fairly similar. There are only so many ways you can mount a base plate on the same chassis. That said, a wider arm spread across the front of the car is probably better.

2. Ride Height: If you have the Quadra-Lift feature in your Grand Cherokee, then make sure the car is placed at normal ride height for towing. You can accomplish this in either of two ways. You could disable the entry/exit level feature in the settings menu, or you could simply raise the suspension to normal ride height as one of the last thing you do before turning off the engine for towing. (it will stay there until you turn the engine on again with the transmission in park and the doors closed.)

3. Wheel Alignment: Have a front end alignment professionally performed at periodic intervals. Any 4-wheel drive car needs this service performed anyway, and a car that is regularly flat towed needs it at closer intervals. Even if your car is brand new, have this done. Many a new vehicle is shipped to dealers with the wheels not properly aligned.

4. Front End Components: Similar to #3 above, have a complete inspection for all front-end components done periodically. You might even consider replacing the OEM rubber bushings with polyurethane bushings. They have been said to last longer and give better control. The owners manual suggests this inspection be done annually or every 12,000 miles.

5. Shocks: When doing #4, don't forget to have the shocks inspected for proper operation at the same time (both front and rear).

6. Tire Pressure: Check your toad tire pressures frequently, and keep them inflated per the recommendation on your tire placard. (My placard recommends 33 psi in the front and 36 in the rear. Yours may vary depending on trim level and engine type.) Make an effort to keep the pressure in your two front tires as even as possible. Remember that proper pressure is crucial to maintaining proper tire patch friction while towing. And I believe that is crucial in preventing the wobble problem. (This also applies to the next two items below.)

7. Frequent Tire Inspections: Inspect your tires frequently. Uneven ware is a sign that you probably need to have the wheel alignment and front end components inspected. Also consider replacing the tires on your Grand Cherokee toad a bit sooner than you would otherwise be inclined to do.

8. Tire Rotation: The owner's manual suggests rotating the tires every 6 months or 6000 miles. How many of us actually do that? (I cannot put myself on that list. ) See the suggested rotation pattern in the manual.

9. Driving Technique: The only comment I will make about this is the same one others have suggested in the forum: When making a tight turn, especially from a stop, make the turn as slowly and as widely as you reasonably can to diminish the forces applied to the toad. Other drivers will wait for you - you are bigger than they are.

These are the things that I intend to do as I finish preparing my new Grand Cherokee Overland for towing, and then hopefully enjoying my new Jeep for years of wobble-free towing. (Please wish me luck. ) I know that there are those who maintain that "it is not a matter of "if" but "when" the '"Death Wobble" will happen. But again, given the observations above, I truly believe that we have some control over this issue.

And lastly.. I again apologize for this very long post. My intention here is to try to be helpful to others.
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Old 09-26-2019, 05:01 AM   #178
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Obviously, the root cause of the wobble problem is the lack of dampening in the all-electric steering system since 2016. But since the wobble in the Grand Cherokee happens so infrequently, you could well be correct in that these variables could exacerbate the tendency for the wobble to occur.

I have a slightly different take. See my thoughts below...
Rob, I read through both your posts. While the "wobble problem" may be traced back to the lack of damping in an EPS system, I think you realize that this lack of damping does not cause the wobble, but rather that the inherent damping of an hydraulic steering system is just not there to stop it when it begins. I do not know if you are aware that FCA filed patent application for "Active Shimmy Mitigation" long before any KLs or EPS-equipped-WK2s even appeared in showrooms. see below:United States Patent: 8831854. The "Cliff Notes" summary of this is that FCA knew there would be wobble tendencies on any EPS equipped vehicle, any time it drives down the road, and that they developed software for their EPS computer to control it.

Without stats on the relative numbers of WK2 Grand Cherokees out there being towed, compared to the number of KL Cherokees in that same role, it is hard to draw a scientific conclusion, however my experience in noticing toads as we travel would indicate the WK2 toads are far fewer than the KL's and thus it is not surprising that the number of reported Wk2 incidents are likewise fewer.

Regarding your recommendations, all are completely consistent with recommendations made by manufacturers of aftermarket tow equipment, eg towbars, baseplates, etc.... as well as car manufacturers themselves. I agree all this should be done. None, however, will stop a wobble inherent in a vehicle once it is started.

FCA/Jeep now claims that their 2019 KL Cherokee does not need the "kit" which had been provided for 2014-'18 KLs to activate this "Shimmy Mitigation" while being towed. FCA has not reported just what has been changed, we do know that the steering rack is different (a new part number). Whether that means they somehow added hydraulic damping, or a new way to activate their wobble mitigation algorithm, or something else, I do not know, but sure as heck would like to find out.
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Old 09-26-2019, 08:58 AM   #179
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Rick,

Thanks for your input. I appreciate it. I indeed realize that the points you raise above are correct. I did not know about the "timing" on the FCA software patent, but it doesn't change much except to serve as a reminder that FCA is likely "guilty" of not being as attentive as they should have been (and should be today) concerning the effects of the EPS system on towed vehicles - especially given the fact that Jeep vehicles are probably the most popular of all recreational towed vehicles.

I also realize that, in part, the reports of the "Death Wabble" are more prominent for KL Cherokees than for the WK2 class because there are so many more of them being towed. However the two classes of Jeep Cherokees do not react the same way with regard to this issue in terms of both frequency of occurrence, and origin of occurrence. There are very few reported incidences on WK2 Grand Cherokees other than those occurring after the "tight turn at relatively slow speed with an uneven surface" scenario. We can suppose that this is largely due to the difference in the weight of the vehicles, although there may be other factors.

My point here is that, regardless of FCA's apparent negligence in failing to plan for dealing with "towed vehicles", or in dealing with that situation adequately now that they are aware of the problem, it doesn't change much for us. They may "quietly" resolve the situation in the Grand Cherokees, as they are now attempting to do with the 2019 changes to the KL, but that still leaves us current owners with the need to deal with the situation as it is.

My thinking is that, while the actions I suggested in that long post above will not prevent the wobble per say, the combination of them may well have the effect of significantly reducing the probability that the inherent wobble will begin in the first place. I believe this due to the differences in how the two different classes of Jeep Cherokees react to the EPS issue, and the relative infrequency of issues with the WK2 class.

Bottom line... If FCA is not going to "fix" the issue for current Grand Cherokee owners (as they have made clear), then we are left to deal with it on our own. That's the viewpoint from which I made those suggestions above.
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Old 09-26-2019, 09:59 AM   #180
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Just want to be sure all the facts are out there as to the history of KL owners have experienced; there are a lot of threads on that. The patent app shows FCA's knowledge of the interrelationship between their EPS vehicles and wobble long precedes their advertising/selling said vehicles with flat-tow instructions in their manuals.

The WK2 and the KL differ more from one another to be considered "classes" of the same vehicle. The WK2 is closer in running gear to a Durango or even a RAM pickup than it is to the KL. They share the name badge and some other Brand characteristics but that's it. This dissimilarity may at least contribute to a lesser wobble-tendency, I hope.

Just be aware that it can happen and be safe going down the road.
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Old 09-28-2019, 07:02 PM   #181
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Rick,

Thanks for your input. I appreciate it. Range of text deleted....

Bottom line... If FCA is not going to "fix" the issue for current Grand Cherokee owners (as they have made clear), then we are left to deal with it on our own. That's the viewpoint from which I made those suggestions above.
Robin,

I am keeping my fingers crossed that what FCA did to the 2019 (maybe 2018) Cherokees to allow them to remove the Flat tow harness requirement from the manual, that they also made the same fix to the GC.
Another post indicated that the steering rack on the 2019 Cherokee had a different part number which suggests a design change.
I am at 1500 miles without a wobble...hope it stays that way

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Old 10-04-2019, 07:52 PM   #182
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About 1400 miles on ours and still watching those slow left turns. So far so good. If it occurs, I'm likely going to add bungie cords to the steering wheel and attach the opposite ends to the seats.
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