New Plan - Jeep Grand Cherokee EPS Wobble

[DrDaveMA]

Just to bring a little levity into the issue, I have the solution, ALWAYS drive over 10 mph and never turn🤪 might not get you to where you want to go, and you certainly will never get back, but you will never experience the death wobble.

[VP Chianese]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

I have had three times and twice was in the same day in about 15k miles. The first two times I thought it was flat tire and pulled over and couldn't find anything wrong. The third time we switched toads. Twice was left turns an one was right turn all under 10 mph.

What brand of tires did you have on your JEEP and where they the original one's on that unit? What PSI did you run?

I ask because I had Michelin 265/60R18's and they were aired with Nitrogen to 34 PSI as JEEP I believe recommends 33 PSI. There are at least four different tires sizes and wheel combinations that can all be on the same units. Laredo P245/70R17, Limited 265/50R20, Limited 265/60R18, Limited with All-Terrain Tire 265/60R18, Overland 265/60R18, Overland 265/50R20, SRT 295/45ZR20, Summit 265/50R20.

I just picked up my 2020 GC Limited with Michelin 265/60R18's yesterday. The dealers PDI was so thorough they didn't even check the tire pressure. They all have 45 PSI as that is the pressure they get when built and shipped so they don't have a flat by the time they are put on the car carriers. I will be rectifying that with a Nitrogen purge and fill to 35 PSI.

Now before anyone gets their drawers in a wad here this is where I'm coming from. I'm one of the lucky ones that never experienced the "wobble" problem in over 25 k miles of towing my 2017. I'm also one that doesn't like to just leave something unresolved.

I believe that somewhere in this debacle the answer may lie in tire brand, tire size, tire pressure, gross weight of the JEEP, and possibly tow bar variables. It may be all or some or in fact none of these that contribute to this problem. I am going to move forward with the 2020 just like the 2017. The same tow base plate, tow bar, tires, air pressure and nothing in the JEEP as added weight. We will see what happens.

It was interesting to reread the issues that were bounced about when the Ford Motor Company had it's tire problem with Firestone that attributed to the roll over of the Ford Explorer and Sixty-two people were killed, more than 100 people were injured in the United States plus 46 killed in Venezuela. There was more finger pointing and accusations between the two companies than that of an auctioneer at an estate sale. Three CEO's, two at the tire company, Bridgestone/Firestone and Bridgestone, and one at Ford were removed from their jobs. No one would take the blame but both were at fault. The out come of the Ford issue was the National Recall Act of which no car company wants to have any involvement with at any costs. So now we should understand why FCA is not just jumping up and waving their hand.

[CWSWine]

I run the Tire Pressure at 36 PSI just like on the door sticker they tires from the factory. I even tire sensors while towing to monitor the pressure.



You said in previous post that your dealer order the harness for 2017 GC. I would like the part number for the harness since according to everything I have read there isn't one for GC only the the KL. There has been several try to install the KL harness on the GC and there no way it will work. I called Jeep care line and they are unaware of any towing harness for the GC only the older KL. Jeep Care line also said is was the EPS on the KL that was causing the problem and the harness solved the problem.

Originally Posted by VP Chianese

What brand of tires did you have on your JEEP and where they the original one's on that unit? What PSI did you run?

I ask because I had Michelin 265/60R18's and they were aired with Nitrogen to 34 PSI as JEEP I believe recommends 33 PSI. There are at least four different tires sizes and wheel combinations that can all be on the same units. Laredo P245/70R17, Limited 265/50R20, Limited 265/60R18, Limited with All-Terrain Tire 265/60R18, Overland 265/60R18, Overland 265/50R20, SRT 295/45ZR20, Summit 265/50R20.

I just picked up my 2020 GC Limited with Michelin 265/60R18's yesterday. The dealers PDI was so thorough they didn't even check the tire pressure. They all have 45 PSI as that is the pressure they get when built and shipped so they don't have a flat by the time they are put on the car carriers. I will be rectifying that with a Nitrogen purge and fill to 35 PSI.

Now before anyone gets their drawers in a wad here this is where I'm coming from. I'm one of the lucky ones that never experienced the "wobble" problem in over 25 k miles of towing my 2017. I'm also one that doesn't like to just leave something unresolved.

I believe that somewhere in this debacle the answer may lie in tire brand, tire size, tire pressure, gross weight of the JEEP, and possibly tow bar variables. It may be all or some or in fact none of these that contribute to this problem. I am going to move forward with the 2020 just like the 2017. The same tow base plate, tow bar, tires, air pressure and nothing in the JEEP as added weight. We will see what happens.

It was interesting to reread the issues that were bounced about when the Ford Motor Company had it's tire problem with Firestone that attributed to the roll over of the Ford Explorer and Sixty-two people were killed, more than 100 people were injured in the United States plus 46 killed in Venezuela. There was more finger pointing and accusations between the two companies than that of an auctioneer at an estate sale. Three CEO's, two at the tire company, Bridgestone/Firestone and Bridgestone, and one at Ford were removed from their jobs. No one would take the blame but both were at fault. The out come of the Ford issue was the National Recall Act of which no car company wants to have any involvement with at any costs. So now we should understand why FCA is not just jumping up and waving their hand.

[rpasetto]

Originally Posted by VP Chianese

So are we hearing about older units that either do not have the harness installed or are we hearing about older units that have the harness and it doesn't work. If it is the former then they need to do the harness if the latter then FCA still has a problem to correct. Also are there newer than 2017 GC that have had the problem and is it ever other than after a right turn with a sharp angle.

Originally Posted by CWSWine

......................... I would like the part number for the harness since according to everything I have read there isn't one for GC only the the KL. There has been several try to install the KL harness on the GC and there no way it will work. I called Jeep care line and they are unaware of any towing harness for the GC only the older KL. Jeep Care line also said is was the EPS on the KL that was causing the problem and the harness solved the problem.

There have been reports of wobble events after the "wiring harness" for the KL was installed. In the cases I know of, it turned out that the harness was flawed or improperly installed and the EPS was not activated (there's a simple test).

CWSWin is correct: there is no such kit for the GC which activated EPS while its being towed. If a dealer told you a towing harness kit was "already installed"he may have ben talkiing about the harness that hooks up a trailer when you tow it. Or, regarding what a salesman may tell you .... check what's in writing in the owner's manual. THE GC is a very different design from the Cherokee.

[VP Chianese]

Originally Posted by rpasetto

There have been reports of wobble events after the "wiring harness" for the KL was installed. In the cases I know of, it turned out that the harness was flawed or improperly installed and the EPS was not activated (there's a simple test).

CWSWin is correct: there is no such kit for the GC which activated EPS while its being towed. If a dealer told you a towing harness kit was "already installed"he may have ben talkiing about the harness that hooks up a trailer when you tow it. Or, regarding what a salesman may tell you .... check what's in writing in the owner's manual. THE GC is a very different design from the Cherokee.

Lets get this corrected. I don't think I said anyplace that the wire harness that I had the dealer order was specifically for a GC. If I did or lead anyone to think it was, then I apologize. I bought a JEEP GC because the guy up the street from me in our Resort had a 2016 Trail Hawk that he towed. He told me about the Quadra Trac II and he also tried to be helpful and gave me the part number for the harness that they needed for his JEEP thinking that we were going to need it for my 2017 GC. I had the dealer order the part number, don't know that number any more, but when it came and I took delivery of the JEEP GC, the service department informed me that the problem was already solved in the GC and the harness was baked into the 2017 GC. So, no not the harness that hooks up a Trailer because with a GC Tow Package that is already on the JEEP, it was in fact the harness that was made by FCA to correct the problem on the KL's. But it was not needed because the 2017 GC had it already in the standard harness as in baked in or maybe programmed in. By the post above the wire harness seems to have fixed most KL's except for a few that were installed improperly. So if that post is correct, I'll assume it is, what is all of the hub bub about. The KL's are repairable by a wire harness and the CG are for the most part a rare case.

As a side, when my friend up the street traveled with us two summers ago if he didn't disconnect his car and we just used my car after two days his would not start. It would drain the battery all the way flat and even a jumper box would not start the car. We had to charge the battery for at least a half hour to get enough voltage back into it to be able to jump it. Anyone remember that on 10.30.2019 when I said that if the fix was just keeping the EPS unit on when being towed, it would take a B+ from the coach to keep the JEEP battery from discharging. I did that for my friend and guess what, his battery never went flat again in over 60 days of being out and not disconnecting at times. Come to think of it if one were to drive for long periods as with two drivers or even one just stopping and not starting the tow the battery could discharge enough to not allow the EPS to work and that could cause the "wobble" just as if the wire harness had not been installed. One more variable.

Now what I do not understand is if the EPS is in fact powered up on the CG's then how is it I can leave it hooked up for two days and it still starts afterwards. One would think there would be a battery drain of some type.

[VP Chianese]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

I run the Tire Pressure at 36 PSI just like on the door sticker they tires from the factory. I even tire sensors while towing to monitor the pressure.

What brand of tires and which of the four different sizes? Were these the OEM tires? The point here is all of these may make a difference or may not.

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by VP Chianese

What brand of tires and which of the four different sizes? Were these the OEM tires? The point here is all of these may make a difference or may not.

They are Michelin® Tires and here is the sticker on my door jam with size and pressure.

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by VP Chianese

Lets get this corrected. I don't think I said anyplace that the wire harness that I had the dealer order was specifically for a GC. If I did or lead anyone to think it was, then I apologize. I bought a JEEP GC because the guy up the street from me in our Resort had a 2016 Trail Hawk that he towed. He told me about the Quadra Trac II and he also tried to be helpful and gave me the part number for the harness that they needed for his JEEP thinking that we were going to need it for my 2017 GC. I had the dealer order the part number, don't know that number any more, but when it came and I took delivery of the JEEP GC, the service department informed me that the problem was already solved in the GC and the harness was baked into the 2017 GC. So, no not the harness that hooks up a Trailer because with a GC Tow Package that is already on the JEEP, it was in fact the harness that was made by FCA to correct the problem on the KL's. But it was not needed because the 2017 GC had it already in the standard harness as in baked in or maybe programmed in. By the post above the wire harness seems to have fixed most KL's except for a few that were installed improperly. So if that post is correct, I'll assume it is, what is all of the hub bub about. The KL's are repairable by a wire harness and the CG are for the most part a rare case.

As a side, when my friend up the street traveled with us two summers ago if he didn't disconnect his car and we just used my car after two days his would not start. It would drain the battery all the way flat and even a jumper box would not start the car. We had to charge the battery for at least a half hour to get enough voltage back into it to be able to jump it. Anyone remember that on 10.30.2019 when I said that if the fix was just keeping the EPS unit on when being towed, it would take a B+ from the coach to keep the JEEP battery from discharging. I did that for my friend and guess what, his battery never went flat again in over 60 days of being out and not disconnecting at times. Come to think of it if one were to drive for long periods as with two drivers or even one just stopping and not starting the tow the battery could discharge enough to not allow the EPS to work and that could cause the "wobble" just as if the wire harness had not been installed. One more variable.

Now what I do not understand is if the EPS is in fact powered up on the CG's then how is it I can leave it hooked up for two days and it still starts afterwards. One would think there would be a battery drain of some type.

According to Jeep Care the harness went into development in 2018 model year(fall 2017) and wasn't released till 2018. Part of the harness is to install a charge line from the coach so If you friends battery went dead either the harness was installed improperly, failed or wasn't installed. Yes, if the charge line fails it can cause the battery go dead and cause the wobble and below is video of that happening. The 2018 instructions I saw had note at the bottom say if you experance the wobble you should have the Jeep inspected before driving or towing the jeep for frame damage. This not little shake like a tire going flat it shacks the entire 35,000-poiund coach and rocks back and forth. There has been reports of while rocking back and forth the Jeep tires were coming off the ground.
Watch the video and see how he describes the wobble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1PsMvUoFW8

[CWSWine]

Here is a video of KL wobble and that is what it felt like in 35,000 40 foot DP Class A Coach when I had GC wobble coach rocking back and forth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwgUAJaeECI

[rpasetto]

Originally Posted by VP Chianese

Lets get this corrected.....................

Now what I do not understand is if the EPS is in fact powered up on the CG's then how is it I can leave it hooked up for two days and it still starts afterwards. One would think there would be a battery drain of some type.

There's a simple procedure to determine if the EPS is activated which many of the KL Cherokee owners use, after performing the procedure of activating the EPS as specified in the Cherokee "flat-tow enhancement kit". After wating about a minute to allow for time delays in the circuitry, rock the steering wheel left-right-left, etc. If it feels like the EPS is providing the power assist as if engine was running, then the kit successfully activated the EPS. If the wheel feels significantly "harder" to move than when it does with engine running, then EPS is not activated and the kit was either defective or improperly installed (the anti-wobble algorithm in the software will obviously not do it's job).

I do not know what similarities, if any there are in the engineering of steering/suspension systems between the KL Cherokee and Grand Cherokee.

Based on the reports of many Grand Cherokee owners here, and in other threads, who have complained about getting the run-around, being misled and getting double-talk, there's a similarity to what FCA did with the KL Cherokee owners in the early years (2014-2015).

My purpose in posting here is to caution GC owners about what may happen in a wobble event, since GC owners of models with Electronic Power Steering have reported similar wobble events (similar that is, but not identical). I think the video in the recent post of @CWSWine clarifies the issue.

Based on the posts of many GC owners here and in other threads, it is doubtful that FCA has solved the GC wobble problem. It is your choice to believe your dealer, or read the posts of others, and the 2012 patent I referred to earlier, which was not specifically for the KL Cherokee. I'm not trying to argue with you or anyone else here.

[VP Chianese]

[QUOTE=CWSWine;5023224]According to Jeep Care the harness went into development in 2018 model year(fall 2017) and wasn't released till 2018. Part of the harness is to install a charge line from the coach so If you friends battery went dead either the harness was installed improperly, failed or wasn't installed. Yes, if the charge line fails it can cause the battery go dead and cause the wobble and below is video of that happening. The 2018 instructions I saw had note at the bottom say if you experance the wobble you should have the Jeep inspected before driving or towing the jeep for frame damage. This not little shake like a tire going flat it shacks the entire 35,000-poiund coach and rocks back and forth. There has been reports of while rocking back and forth the Jeep tires were coming off the ground.[QUOTE]

Something isn't correct here. The friends Night Hawk was a 2016. The friends Night Hawk had a wire harness added to make the JEEP tow able. That wire harness required the removal of a fuse or the insertion of a fuse I don't remember which because it wasn't my car. There was no wire added to charge the battery because I checked and then installed one. All of this happened before JEEP care says it could have. Or the wire harness being referred to is a totally different wire harness. So something is wrong here.

Secondly we seem to go back and forth between more than one model of JEEP as if they were the same. They are not the same.

How did the folks that made that video get that to happen on command? Or does the wife drive behind the coach and video it everyday? I though it required a turn and rough uneven road to get it to happen? Why would anyone continue to drive for even ten feet once that started to happen? Stop and start out again maybe but continue and then go around the corner as well.

I'm not saying nor have I said that the "wobble" doesn't happen. What I am saying is I think FCA has done their part on mitigating the problem. Are there any actual reports of a 2018 or newer JEEP Grand Cherokee Limited's doing it, ever?

CWSWine stated "I have had three times and twice was in the same day in about 15k miles. The first two times I thought it was flat tire and pulled over and couldn't find anything wrong. The third time we switched toads. Twice was left turns an one was right turn all under 10 mph."

Yet he still has the 2017 GCL because he took a picture of the tire pressure label and still lists it as his tow. All of which is fine but the above statement say's he changed, which is it? What did he change to?

[CWSWine]

[QUOTE=VP Chianese;5024361][QUOTE=CWSWine;5023224]According to Jeep Care the harness went into development in 2018 model year(fall 2017) and wasn't released till 2018. Part of the harness is to install a charge line from the coach so If you friends battery went dead either the harness was installed improperly, failed or wasn't installed. Yes, if the charge line fails it can cause the battery go dead and cause the wobble and below is video of that happening. The 2018 instructions I saw had note at the bottom say if you experance the wobble you should have the Jeep inspected before driving or towing the jeep for frame damage. This not little shake like a tire going flat it shacks the entire 35,000-poiund coach and rocks back and forth. There has been reports of while rocking back and forth the Jeep tires were coming off the ground.

Something isn't correct here. The friends Night Hawk was a 2016. The friends Night Hawk had a wire harness added to make the JEEP tow able. That wire harness required the removal of a fuse or the insertion of a fuse I don't remember which because it wasn't my car. There was no wire added to charge the battery because I checked and then installed one. All of this happened before JEEP care says it could have. Or the wire harness being referred to is a totally different wire harness. So something is wrong here.

Secondly we seem to go back and forth between more than one model of JEEP as if they were the same. They are not the same.

How did the folks that made that video get that to happen on command? Or does the wife drive behind the coach and video it everyday? I though it required a turn and rough uneven road to get it to happen? Why would anyone continue to drive for even ten feet once that started to happen? Stop and start out again maybe but continue and then go around the corner as well.

I'm not saying nor have I said that the "wobble" doesn't happen. What I am saying is I think FCA has done their part on mitigating the problem. Are there any actual reports of a 2018 or newer JEEP Grand Cherokee Limited's doing it, ever?

CWSWine stated "I have had three times and twice was in the same day in about 15k miles. The first two times I thought it was flat tire and pulled over and couldn't find anything wrong. The third time we switched toads. Twice was left turns an one was right turn all under 10 mph."
Yet he still has the 2017 GCL because he took a picture of the tire pressure label and still lists it as his tow. All of which is fine but the above statement say's he changed, which is it? What did he change to?

In my Signature line.
2017 Newmar LE 4037 - 2018 Ford Edge
Sold - DP 2017 Discovery LXE 40D
2017 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited
Past RVs 2006 21 Foot BT Cruiser Class C - 2015 Montana 3711 - 2016 Grand Design 310GK-R

[rpasetto]

Originally Posted by VP Chianese

Something isn't correct here. The friends Night Hawk was a 2016. The friends Night Hawk had a wire harness added to make the JEEP tow able. That wire harness required the removal of a fuse or the insertion of a fuse I don't remember which because it wasn't my car. There was no wire added to charge the battery because I checked and then installed one. All of this happened before JEEP care says it could have. Or the wire harness being referred to is a totally different wire harness. So something is wrong here.

Never heard of "NightHawk, but if you mean "Trailhawk", I suggest you read through the many threads on Jeep Cherokee wobble, here and on Cherokee and Jeep forums. The Trailhawk has essentially the same design as the other 4WD Cherokee models. FCA recommends adding a charge wire. Then again a charge wire is a recommended addition for any towed with an aux braking system; that should be all of them.

Secondly we seem to go back and forth between more than one model of JEEP as if they were the same. They are not the same.

There are at least a dozen posts, including some of mine, which clearly state that the WK2 Grand Cherokee and the KL Cherokee are very different cars. They share the name, logo badges and some of the FCA common parts, like Uconnect. None of these parts have anything to do with steering/suspension. Clearly the two vehicles are different and I don't know of a post which says otherwise.

How did the folks that made that video get that to happen on command? Or does the wife drive behind the coach and video it everyday? I though it required a turn and rough uneven road to get it to happen? Why would anyone continue to drive for even ten feet once that started to happen? Stop and start out again maybe but continue and then go around the corner as well.

I recall the detail when that video came out. Friends were traveling together; the vehicle behind made the video, the incident being fairly common in days of the early Cherokee. It didn't happen "on command". Once again, I suggest you read through the threads on this. You will learn a lot, including statements from owners who didn't know what was going wrong, or how to stop it, the first time it occurred. Surely the driver of the coach experiencing the problem was safety minded enough to turn off the main highway rather than stop in traffic.

If one reads FCA's 2012 patent application, and then read the details about how long it took FCA to issue the harness for KL Cherokees, it's easy to see why owners who waited years for a solution have stated their dismay with FCA.

I'm not saying nor have I said that the "wobble" doesn't happen. What I am saying is I think FCA has done their part on mitigating the problem. Are there any actual reports of a 2018 or newer JEEP Grand Cherokee Limited's doing it, ever?

It's not clear whether you refer to the KL wobble events or the different wobble events of of the Grand Cherokee.

If one reads the 2012 patent application, and then reads the details about how long it took FCA to issue the harness for KL Cherokees, it's easy to see why owners who waited years for a solution have stated their dismay with FCA. I cannot see any defense of FCA "doing their part" after they knew at least two years before about the EPS-equipped KL Cherokee wobble tendencies and then advertise the KL as "the ideal towed"..... followed then by their totally ignoring and discrediting those Grand Cherokee owners' wobble complaints right here.

CWSWine stated "I have had three times and twice was in the same day in about 15k miles. The first two times I thought it was flat tire and pulled over and couldn't find anything wrong. The third time we switched toads. Twice was left turns an one was right turn all under 10 mph."

Yet he still has the 2017 GCL because he took a picture of the tire pressure label and still lists it as his tow. All of which is fine but the above statement say's he changed, which is it? What did he change to?

Reading your last paragraph, I'm wondering whether you are trying to find out facts, or just trying to discredit the words of those who have had wobble problems. {Note to moderator: isn't this forum supposed to be about the former: finding and sharing information.... and not the latter?}

After you read through all the threads here and in other forums, which multiply answer questions you have raised.... and after you read the FCA 2012 patent application which is mentioned in many of these threads, let us know your thoughts.

[VP Chianese]

Originally Posted by rpasetto

Reading your last paragraph, I'm wondering whether you are trying to find out facts, or just trying to discredit the words of those who have had wobble problems. {Note to moderator: isn't this forum supposed to be about the former: finding and sharing information.... and not the latter?}

After you read through all the threads here and in other forums, which multiply answer questions you have raised.... and after you read the FCA 2012 patent application which is mentioned in many of these threads, let us know your thoughts.

My thoughts are just this. I have wasted enough time on this subject. The problems for the most part have been solved for the old units as well as the new. Old units need the wire harness, which when installed correctly has a charge wire installed at the time, but that doesn't get done sometime, newer units have a baked in wire harness. Posting a video of an incident from 2014 to try to scare everyone is pointless. That's like making every astronaut watch the Challenger disaster before they go into space. We don't use that rocket anymore. Speaking of that, how long did it take for that problem to be solved. They knew the cause with in a few days but did not fly again for three plus years. Over a rubber "O" ring.

As I said before FCA nor any other automotive manufacturer will ever admit to any problem unless they have to. The instant they do the Federal Law requires them (since the FORD Explorer roll overs) to have a recall, that they better have the fix all figured out and ready, all of the parts design done, built, tested plus ample parts available at the time of the recall. Just think about that for minute. Maybe a million or so harness for the few that are being towed.

I'm not going to read the FCA Patent. I'm not a patent lawyer and I never ever played one on TV. I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express so then again maybe I am qualified.

As to your Moderator comment. Yes it is for dispersing information but correct information not beating a dead horse with misguided information. I was just trying to get some facts corrected as there are more than 10 or so items on any one unit that could contribute to the "wobble". I'd like to point out that FCA's Patent will compensate for any one of the ten or so other items, such as misalignment, cupped tires and so on as well as any design flaws which it was designed to do. But all some are interested in doing is discussing the past. So have at it all you want.

So here I'll sum it up,

FCA has built a JEEP product or products that had or may have a "wobble" effect when being towed. It took them a little over 2.5 years to eliminate and repair that defect. There are countless thousands of those un-repaired units out there in the market place. Of which a small amount of them, say 5% will ever be towed behind anything and if so, they may or may not ever experience the "wobble". FCA has in fact supplied a wire harness kit to eliminate this effect but some folks think that FCA should not only have the kit available but give it to them free of charge and have it installed for them as well. On all effected units, being towed or not just in case one is bought in the future and is towed. Just to clarify, as stupid as the last sentence sounds, is just what would happen if FCA admitted to this problem and had a recall like some think they should. BTW Recalls are Federally mandated and are usually related to death causing injures, Technical Bulletins such as these are not.