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Old 01-03-2018, 03:19 PM   #15
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OP, are you sure your wire that is supposed to have 12v power to it from your MH actually does? Many will not have the constant 12v hooked up. People think it is as they have the big round plug but that doesn't mean anything. Confirm you have voltage to be sure. Just a thought as I had the same issue.
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:26 PM   #16
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Hey, Scott ("FIRE UP")-

The OP ("Spizzer") has a 2007 Winnie Journey 34H. The owner's manual (link here; sheet 136, page 12-4) implies that there's a charge line pin at the hitch connector. For the life of me, though, I can't find a drawing on Winne's site (link here) that shows the hitch connector wiring diagram. There's an installation drawing (link here) that says, on sheet 3, "chassis supplied" and "CONNECTOR-PLUG, TRAILER (146246-01-000) TO BE SUPPLIED IN COACH."

I guess that's all just proof I've done my homework, and still come up empty-handed.

Does your 2004 Horizon have a fuse or a circuit breaker for a charge line? If so, where is it?
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Spizzer View Post
I figured somebody might be able to help me understand something. When I tow my Jeep GC two days without running it in between, the battery goes dead, and it won't start. I thought I would just hook up the 12 volt pin from the tow electrical cable to the Jeep battery (with just a fuse inline). This seemed to make no difference in keeping the battery charged.

So my question is: How will a towed vehicle battery maintainer be any better than what I have? How can it charge more than a direct connect from the same source? My thought is that they are designed to limit the current to the battery, and to keep the car battery from powering back into the RV system.

Can somebody help me understand what is going on? I have been disconnecting my battery terminal and have been finding that the RV power is fine for running brake lights and brake feedback light on the RV dash.

Thanks for your wisdom!

jeff
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Originally Posted by FIRE UP View Post
Jeff,
Like Mark said in post #2, what difference would there be using a toad charger vs a 12V hot wire from the coach? They're both supplying 13+ volts to the toads battery, right? I'm not really schooled on toad battery chargers but, I have setup a charge line from coach to toad, several times and have never had any dead battery issues. The difference as I see it is, one costs more than the other but, both do the same thing.

To the OP,

Just wondering, you say this situation has been happening all along, correct? How old is the battery in the Cherokee? Some batteries can have just enough juice in them to power up the starter on the vehicle they're in but, if that vehicle is out of tune, meaning it's hard to start with more than normal cranking, the battery dies off rather rapidly. And, the minute load of brake lights every now and then, helps put that battery over the edge in terms of loss of cranking power.

We've towed multiple vehicles/jeeps/trucks etc. with zero charge lines and towed for quite a long time at long intervals and, never had any dead batteries. The only time I personally have needed a charge line was 'cause we were towing our '11 Honda CRV and due to it's prep for towing, it required the key to be in the "ON" position. So, I setup a simple hot line from the coach to the CRV and that was all that was needed.

But, I have had a couple of vehicles that had borderline batteries. Those would start the vehicles just fine but, if I left the lights on for say, 5-10 minutes while doing something in the dark, ZAP, the engine was not going to start. So, this is why I ask about the general condition of the toads battery.
Scott
A "toad charger" or something similar uses a DC-to-DC converter to boost the voltage from the motorhome to the toad. This increases the current supplied to the toad battery.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:17 PM   #18
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I had the same issue, One day fine but by the second day it was dead. I had 12v feeding through the 7 pin connector. Tried the special chargers for towed vehicles and that didn't work.

What I did was order a 6 gage wire setup with Anderson connector from powerwerx. I ran it from the battery on my towed vehicle down next to the tow bar connection. I did the same from the motorhome down to where the 7 pin is. Each run has a cover and can be tucked up behind a bumper.

When I am traveling far I have a another length of wire with the same connectors and connect them.

Never had an issue after that.
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Old 01-03-2018, 07:57 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Spizzer View Post
... I thought I would just hook up the 12 volt pin from the tow electrical cable to the Jeep battery (with just a fuse inline). This seemed to make no difference in keeping the battery charged...
There is no reason this would not work. That 12V battery feed on the trailer connector is intended to do just what you wanted: keep a battery charged while you drive. Either the 12V feed isn't working (many don't have a fuse installed by default) or there is a wiring issue (such as the ground wire isn't properly connected to the toad.)
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:02 PM   #20
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A "toad charger" or something similar uses a DC-to-DC converter to boost the voltage from the motorhome to the toad. This increases the current supplied to the toad battery.
"DC to DC" converter?
Without a doubt, I'm not an electrical wizard, in any stretch of the imagination but, I'm wondering, why would you need or, even design, a "DC to DC" converter? I can see the need and or use in a DC to AC or, AC to DC but, DC to DC, I'm gonna need an explanation on that please. And, also, in my limited electrical knowledge, as I understand it, anytime voltage or, maybe even amperage is INCREASED from it's source, doesn't that necessitate the need of a transformer or an amplification of some type? What I'm getting at is, if a coaches battery/alternator is putting out say, 13.5V at the trailer plug of the coach, and a regular plain old charge line is in place between the coaches trailer plug and the toads battery that is of say, 12GA, you SHOULD see 13.5V at the positive post of the toad, correct?

So, with the use of any of the available "Toad chargers", are they not wired from the coach to the toad, in same fashion as the standard, regular old charge wire? On the two I've researched, I see a "powerful 15 amp output" and, a "Powerful 10 amp output". Since the alternator on most coaches are rated far above 100 amps, (at least many of the modern coaches) and, assuming that much of that 100 amps is used up in keeping both the chassis and house batteries up to snuff, I'd figure there's at least in the neighborhood of maybe 10-20 amps left over for charging the toad battery. And, in any of the literature I've read on these two "toad chargers", I can't find anywhere where it states that they are an AMPLIFIER of any type that would be able to amplify the charge rate/voltage/amperage of the incoming 12-14V to anything higher than what's already being supplied.

Now, all of my calculations are mostly based on some seat of the pants experience, not really technically trained in auto electronics.
Scott
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:42 PM   #21
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Something I don't understand...Toad Battery

The so-called “Toad Chargers” are snake oil at its finest. You simply do not need to waste your money on one. They don’t do anything that a simple piece of wire will do!

I understand electronics and have a strong background in electric principles. Ohm’s law and I are old friends. ;-)

It really bothers when unscrupulous manufacturers take advantage of people who don’t understand electricity. Snake oil salesmen...
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:05 AM   #22
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Thinking of how one of these just might be helpful.

The voltage drop from a charge line can drop the voltage down enough that it does not have the "force" to push electrons into the resistance of the battery..

If you boost this voltage you can then push the available amps into the resistance of the battery.

So yes, you are not charging the battery at the full potential of the alternator you can get the 10 amps needed to keep a battery full.

Add to this a regulated charge supply the battery will not be overcharged.

My first gut feeling was they are snake oil but after more consideration they make sense to me.

Think of it this way. High power tension lines carry very high voltage at a reduced current. It is then transformed to a lower voltage and higher current to the homes.

I think Ohms law is still intact.
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:19 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by funmoneypit View Post
OP, are you sure your wire that is supposed to have 12v power to it from your MH actually does? Many will not have the constant 12v hooked up. People think it is as they have the big round plug but that doesn't mean anything. Confirm you have voltage to be sure. Just a thought as I had the same issue.
I found that to be true even with my higher end MH. The charge line had never been wired in till we bought the rig. Dealer did it for us before we left the lot by using one of the spare lines from the front electrical compartment to the engine bay terminal block. I get 12.6 volts at the 7 pin plug.
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:29 AM   #24
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It is possible to take a low DC voltage (say 11.5VDC), convert to a/c, transform it up to 13.5VAC, and rectify it back to DC. Output amps would be reduced due to transmission and conversion losses so charge time would be extended.

I suspect that charge voltage on a simple charge wire might be pretty low. If you put 13.5VDC (from the alternator) into a 50' long 12 gauge wire and apply a 10 amp load you'll only get 11.91 VDC out of the distant end. Do it with a 14 gauge wire and the output voltage will only be 10.97 VDC. If you simply place a voltmeter on the end of the wire you will not get a valid reading as you need to check it under load. At any rate, 11.91 VDC will not charge a toad battery very well.

Here's a voltage drop calculator if you want to see how much drop you get on your particular wiring setup - Voltage Drop Calculator

Easy solution, use a Ready Brake and buy a Wrangler. Put the key in your pocket and the battery won't discharge. I didn't say it was a cheap solution, just easy.
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Old 01-04-2018, 10:44 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by YC1 View Post
Thinking of how one of these just might be helpful.

The voltage drop from a charge line can drop the voltage down enough that it does not have the "force" to push electrons into the resistance of the battery..

If you boost this voltage you can then push the available amps into the resistance of the battery.

So yes, you are not charging the battery at the full potential of the alternator you can get the 10 amps needed to keep a battery full.

Add to this a regulated charge supply the battery will not be overcharged.

My first gut feeling was they are snake oil but after more consideration they make sense to me.

Think of it this way. High power tension lines carry very high voltage at a reduced current. It is then transformed to a lower voltage and higher current to the homes.

I think Ohms law is still intact.
Myron,
I'm always learning on this forum. You seem to have way more electrical know-how than myself. But, I have a question or two.

1. The voltage drop from a charge line can drop the voltage down enough that it does not have the "force" to push electrons into the resistance of the battery..

The word "CAN" is what I'm asking about here. Now, that word, to me, sort of leads me to think that it CAN, but, doesn't mean it ALWAYS does. And that leads me to inquire about wire size. Folks always mention wire size when it comes to voltage loss. The larger the wire, the less voltage drop, correct? So, if one sets up a charge wire, and uses say, 12GA or even 10GA (which I think is serious overkill in this situation), wouldn't you then receive pretty much the maximum amount of voltage and current to the toads battery?

2. If you boost this voltage you can then push the available amps into the resistance of the battery.

I mentioned this earlier in my previous post. In the brochures or, on-line nomenclature about the two "Toad Chargers" that I looked up, all they stated was, "Powerful 15A out put" and, the other was "Powerful 10A output".

But, there was zero mention or, explanation as to HOW or why they make those statements. Your word in red, "Boost", has me asking, how, in those little tiny boxes, is the incoming 12V from the coach, BOOSTED in any way or form? Don't you have to have some form of amplification mechanism in those boxes to get any form of BOOST from them? Again, I'm not electrically bright here. I've got lots of basics down but, when it comes to just about anything other than checking out bad grounds, or maybe even wire size determination for runs, I'm not up on this stuff.

3. Think of it this way. High power tension lines carry very high voltage at a reduced current. It is then transformed to a lower voltage and higher current to the homes.

Can the above statement, really be related to 12V from vehicle to vehicle? Or, is it and how exactly does it correlate?

I ask all this because, I'm kind-a in the same school in thinking that "Toad chargers" are sort of "snake oil" too. Many, many gents on here and other forums have setup simple, single wire charge lines to their toads and have alleviated any and all dead battery issues they used to have. But, there are also the few that have purchased or paid to have installed, a "Toad charger" and are happy with them.

To me, it's along the same lines as when diodes are mentioned in toad lighting. There are expensive "Diode kits" that can be purchased at many RV supplies outlets and, there's the way I did it, many, many times. And that is, using a Radio Shack pack of 3 or 4 diodes for around $3.50. Installing them ahead of the connection points where the coach wiring ties in to the toad lighting wire will prevent the juice from going down stream where it doesn't belong and, the cost was close to ZERO. But, folks would rather pay the higher price for something that does the same exact thing.
Scott
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:09 PM   #26
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From what I see the "toad chargers" all provide two functions that a straight wire would not provide but can be added by a knowledgeable person for cheaper then buying an off the shelf solution.

First is either a circuit breaker or fuses to limit the amps provided to the toad. The ones I looked at had fuses / breakers on both sides (rv and toad). Not sure two is necessary and not just one on the RV side in case a short happened. he more expensive ones had breakers the cheaper ones had fuses.

Second is a diode that prevents the RV from draining the toads battery. If the connection to the RV battery is live all the time (not switched by ignition) then if you leave the toad connected overnight on a longer trip the RV could drain the toad battery as it would be part over the overall battery system providing amps. If you plug in then the converter would provide the amps with batteries providing any extra amps needed. But if you are stopped at a rest area (or walmart or boondocking, etc) then all batteries connected together would provide the amps and the RV usage would drain the toad battery. This also has a caveat that the effect of RV 12v use would depend on the source of the 12v on the RV side. The effect would be different depending if it is the house batteries or the chassis batteries provide the 12v to the toad. But using a diode makes sense in my opinion.

DC to DC converters exist but usually are used to change the nominal voltage ie from 12v to 6v or 24v not normally used to condition a 12v system to ensure flat voltage. It is expected in a 12v system that relies on batteries for the voltage to range from 11+ to 13+ volts (especially wet cell batteries; Lithuim based batteries do provide a flatter voltage curve on discharge) .

I did not see a response back from the OP that he has confirmed that the charge pin on his connector actually has 12v provided at all times, only when ignition is on, or not at all. Also a check to see it the 12v is actually provided at the toad side (ie the ground between the vehicles is good).


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Old 01-04-2018, 12:18 PM   #27
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Are you driving solid for 2 days ????
Do you leave the key on all night ?
depending on your toad, it probably has parasitic losses even when off....

Silly me... How about just starting the car between days and let it recharge until you get a charge line?
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:47 PM   #28
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Scott, that is a lot of questions so I may have to go back and forth a couple of times.

IF the wire is sufficient to carry the load then a simple wire charge line is fine. I have used this method for about 35 years.

Lighter wires have resistance and as the toad battery comes up to the proper voltage its internal resistance comes up and the voltage under optimum setups would mirror the coach batteries. This is optimum and not likely but we are not trying to jump start a vehicle, just keep a leaky bucket full of water with a small hose.

IF the wires are too long, you have wimpy contacts etc then the voltage at the toad battery will not get high enough to force electrons to flow and fill up that leaky bucket. It may just barely maintain what it had or worse just slow the discharge rate a bit.

Dc to DC as mentioned is usually to isolate polarity or change the voltage level. In any case there are regulators built in to those devices.

I will try this analogy for using a "toad charger". On our rv's that have "inverters", we take 12 volts and move it up to 110 volts. That 110 volts is now capable of charging many things like cell phones etc once it is stepped down. That 110 volts of course in this case can do much more. Heck, we can even charge other batteries using a standard battery charger. Not efficient in any way of course.
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