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Old 07-19-2013, 06:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by dwhit View Post
My DW did this...now I do it.

No damage...engine landed on spare tire mounted on dolly tongue..
When my son was 17 know 33 I let him put the car on Dolly and he did the same thing never let him do it again. I like to have never got the car pulled back.
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Old 07-19-2013, 08:59 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Scarab0088 View Post
I just want to send THANKS to Spritz and Dwhit for posting details of their "Ooops."

There seems to be a cultural resistence that prevents us from sharing our problems in public.
But, many can learn from other's mishaps - if they are shared...
If I shared all the dumb things I've done, they would have to create a "Dogpatch Forum" just for me. LOL
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Old 07-20-2013, 08:07 AM   #17
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I have alway been very careful loading my Kar Kaddy dolley but last year I left home and drove 100 miles and didn't realize I had forgoten to lock the ball on the hitch till I turned into a parking place at cracker barrel and the tow dolley came loose. There was no damage but when I went to see what happened the latch was still in the up position with the saftey pin still in it. From now on I check every thing at least twice and the let the DW check it to.
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Old 07-20-2013, 08:28 AM   #18
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Sometimes we become too complacent. We have connected and disconnected the toad so many times it gets to be automatic. Last year about a half mile out of a CG DW says "I can't remember if I put the clip on one pin of the tow bar". I pull over and we check but all is well. This fall we decided we will make a check list for the toad like the one we use in the RV. It is very easy to forget a step when you repeatedly do the same task.
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:42 AM   #19
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Sometimes we become too complacent. ... This fall we decided we will make a check list for the toad like the one we use in the RV. It is very easy to forget a step when you repeatedly do the same task.
Checklists are great but...

I have dealt with checklists through out my aviation career. In ATC we have position relief checklists along with checklists for other odds n ends and as a pilot all manner of checklists. They are a great tool as long as you follow them with an attentive mind and in many cases some kind of physical action to ensure you actually did it.

As an example, if your toad checklist says to verify safety pins are in...pull on the pin. Don't just look at it. The problem with how folks deal with routine checklist is that at some point it becomes a memorize litany we start to follow by rote. Kinda like driving to work and not remembering how you got there. Including tactile responses/checks to a list helps get the brain truly involved.

I learned this a long time ago when I did a night time engine start checklist in a Piper Archer (smallish 4 set plane). Very shortly after I got airborne the engine ran REAL rough. After going through all my emergency procedures to get it running smooth I declared an emergency and landed. Long story short after I landed and turned on the cockpit lights I saw that I had not properly locked the primer pump and therefore was flooding the engine. I know that I followed my checklist because I checked it off but I don't recall actually touching the primer and ensuring it was closed and locked. Since then I have made an effort to not only follow checklists but create specific tasks to ensure that I actually did something.
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:58 AM   #20
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Don,
I see what you are saying and agree. We made up a list for starting the RV and have added things as we went. One was to check to see if we picked up the house type water filter we attach at the park spigot. That got added after we noticed it still at our site as we left the CG Not as dangerous as an aircraft problem of course

One of us will read our checklist out loud so we both think about it.
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:27 AM   #21
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Don,
...

One of us will read our checklist out loud so we both think about it.
In aviation that would be known as Crew Resource Management (CRM). It is a bit more involved then when you see on TV the pilot saying something and the co-pilot saying "check". Not only does it normally require a vocal question/task from the person running the checklist but it also requires a specific task and response from the person assisting in the checklist while the pilot running the list watches and verifies. It is a "close the loop" system.

CRM is used to make mission critical decisions. A great example of this was when I took a flight in the cockpit of a commercial flight from Denver to Spokane, WA. Again, long story short, the crew members had to negotiate with each other how to deal with the impacts of equipment outages (aircraft and navigational aids) that were nearing critical importance due to high altitudes and high temps with a fully loaded plane. They had to explore everything from deplaning some passengers to aborting the flight because of navigational aid outages at Spokane. Truly a marvelous professional performance on their part.

As an aside, and perhaps still relevant, is culture and hierarchy relationships. This may be something that will be found to have been a significant factor in the Asiana crash at SFO. In that case (very prevalent in many Asian crew dynamics) seniority, especially age, plays a huge part in how crews interact. There appears to be a dynamic in that situation were a younger pilot didn't challenge the older pilot in a way that American style CRM encourages. In the example above the DEN crew had to question and challenge each other as peers, not pilot (god) vs co-pilot (subject to god's will).

The connection to this regarding our use of our spouses/significant others is to ensure we keep our RV CRM on that kind of bases. Clearly, in most RV families the man tends to be the more technically aware person of the team and as such might (intentionally or not) diminish the questions posed by the other part of the team. When running safety critical checklists each person has to become a peer. That means the strong personality must LISTEN and ACKNOWLEDGE the input of the other person and the other person has to learn to stand up to the stronger person and speak up when they think something is not right. Once that is done they must mutually agree that the problem is not a factor or that it has been properly dealt with before they move on.

Sorry...class dismissed.
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Old 07-20-2013, 11:57 AM   #22
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We had a good example of "checklist complacency" a while ago. DW had made up a really nice set of laminated checklists which we used in the "challenge-response" mode for a while until complacency set in. One morning we had a pre dawn departure, it was raining and we were rushing. We hooked up the toad and set off down the road. One of my checks as soon as I'm on a clear section of road is to brake firmly enough to cause the Brake Buddy to engage so I can verify the red light on the remote. A loud squealing from the rear end had me pull over in a hurry. Turned out I had left the toad keys in Ignition instead of Accessory, so the brake boost pump was running which caused serious over braking when the Brake Buddy kicked in. Needless to say that step in the checklist now results in a visual check of the key position. I flew Cessnas many years ago and my instructor drilled the importance of checklists into me regularly.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:02 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Sky_Boss View Post

As an aside, and perhaps still relevant, is culture and hierarchy relationships. This may be something that will be found to have been a significant factor in the Asiana crash at SFO. In that case (very prevalent in many Asian crew dynamics) seniority, especially age, plays a huge part in how crews interact. There appears to be a dynamic in that situation were a younger pilot didn't challenge the older pilot in a way that American style CRM encourages. In the example above the DEN crew had to question and challenge each other as peers, not pilot (god) vs co-pilot (subject to god's will).
If I remember correctly, that was the cause of the KLM 747 crash in the Canary Islands years ago.
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Old 07-20-2013, 12:20 PM   #24
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If I remember correctly, that was the cause of the KLM 747 crash in the Canary Islands years ago.
It certainly was a factor but not necessarily the primary cause. In an accident investigation class I took the definition of a accident is a series of events that leads to a catastrophic failure. The events of most any accident are a series of events. The trick is to focus on events that have the most chance to break the chain before it gets busted.

In the case of Tenerife there were a whole host of factors and in my mind, perhaps the most significant was "gotta get thereitis." Yes, KLM's Captain certainly played a major part and, IMHO, gets the lion's share of blame. However, runway configuration, weather, critical radio transmissions being blocked played a significant part. It certainly is a good case study for the results of the affects of cumulative errors.

As it applies to safe RVing...the trick is to know the most critical points of any task and use those to evaluate how well a task is being completed. An over burdensome checklist will be just that. A checklist with specific places to stand back and evaluate the effects of a series of smaller tasks keeps the list manageable. HOWEVER...there is something all can do that I think is overlooked...PRACTICE. Got a new tow bar? Go practice setting it up and unhooking it. It ain't glamorous but practicing the routine does 2 things. It gets you familiar with the equipment and it also helps sort out the best order of things to be done and how they should be done.
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:18 PM   #25
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How did this posting get from the guy making a mistake loading his caddie to towing four down to flying airplanes and making checklists? None of this has anything to do with the problem/happening. I thought this forum was about helping fellow rv'ers solve problems. Good grief folks, stick to the point!
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:03 AM   #26
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For those of you that like checklists read the Checklist Manifesto, if you haven't done so already. It's a great book and a quick read.
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:08 AM   #27
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I was camping last week, I had to visit the dump station and after getting back to the site I realized that I had forgot to retract my TV antenna. It was fine, except for the leaves that it collected along the way.....

RVing 101. It is amazing how quick those basics go out the window sometimes....
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Old 07-21-2013, 02:46 AM   #28
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I tow my Suzuki with a foldable arm A-frame. There is a locking pin to keep the arms apart, and it removes to allow them to fold together for storage. Towed the Suzie for 40 km without the pin in. I had left it on the ground at the back of the MH when I connected up. Not too serious, as the arms couldn't close when they were attached to the car, but there are three such pins with locks and I happened to miss the only one that was not important. My biggest worry when I do something stupid is how much worse it might have been if I had missed something bigger.
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