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Old 01-09-2014, 06:37 PM   #1
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2005 Four Winds with a fueling problem

Recently traveled into Texas where it was really cold and found my 2006 Four Winds (on a Chevy 2005 Express 3500 chassis) would not allow me to put fuel into the gas tank. It would click off every second. It took 1/2 hr to get 10 gals...ugh. Now the check engine light comes on when I first start the RV but then shuts off about 30 seconds later so not sure what that indicates. As we traveled home and the temperature got warmer the problem seemed to go away but recently it only allow me to fill up about 1/3 of the tank and then clicked off as if the tank was full. It was not cold either.

Everything I can find says the vent valve on the gas intake is stuck closed or sticking. I need to verify that this valve is located up on top of the gas tank under the RV since that appears where all the hoses are going. If so I would then need to drop the gas tank to get to that valve but do not want to do that without being sure it is located there.

Any help on this would be great. It is an easy valve to replace if you know where to find it.

Thanks
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Old 01-09-2014, 07:57 PM   #2
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I've never seen a 'valve' on the vent line, but that's not to say it doesn't exist.

That said it sounds like you've got enough humidity there to ice up the vent. Try a good dose of gas line antifreeze
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:30 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf2u View Post
I've never seen a 'valve' on the vent line, but that's not to say it doesn't exist.

That said it sounds like you've got enough humidity there to ice up the vent. Try a good dose of gas line antifreeze
There is a valve on all cars and trucks now with a charcol canister to capture the fumes and then feed them back into the intake manifold. The Chevy Express has this system and normally the valve and purge system is mounted on the front side of the gas tank but with the modifications they do to fit a "box" on a larger chassis they must have put it up on top of the tank.
I did think the cold was the problem since later on when it was not as cold I did not have the problem but then in a mild climate in CA it started again and produced a check engine light. What they say on other forumns is that the valve can stick closed which prevents the air in the tank from going into the filter and balancing the pressure in the tank. The default for the valve is to be open.
I am just hoping someone who works on these coaches all the time can confirm that it is located on top of the tank and any tricks they might have to get to it or do I have to drop that big ass tank!! It is about half full of gas.
Thanks for the reply
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:52 AM   #4
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Ok, maybe we're talking about two different items. I realize there's a charcoal canister and valve to prevent liquid moving up through that system. What I'm talking about is the vent pipe that runs up parallel to the fill pipe and dumps back into the neck of the fill pipe and triggers the auto shut-off on the gas pump. Without that vent line gas goes into the tank faster than the air it displaces can escape, that causes a backup in the filler tube and triggers the gas pump to shut off.

Here's a pic to illustrate the (smaller) tube I'm talking about.

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Old 01-10-2014, 02:14 PM   #5
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Gas filling problem

I see that part under the RV and the hose attached to the smaller tube goes up above the tank and as such I can not see what it is attached to. It should be attached to the valve that I was talking about.

It is used to control the flow of vapors from the EVAPORATIVE system to the intake manifold. It is controlled by the vehicles main computer or ECM. When the ECM sends the activation signal, a plunger in the valve will move to seal the vent. The ability to seal the vent is necessary for the on board diagnosis of other evaporative loss system components. This solenoid valve is used only for diagnosis, and usually remains opened. When the vent is closed, under normal purge conditions, the evaporative loss system is depressurized and allows "EVAP Control System (Small Leak)" diagnosis. If this valve is defective, the Check Engine Light will illuminate to Set with Small Leak Diagnosis. Some of the trouble codes associated with this part being defective are: P1456, P1448, P0449, and P0455.




I believe that tube is what is attached to the Vent Control Valve. I am just trying to find out without tearing things apart that it is indeed located on top of the gas tank. I can wiggle the rubber hose attached to the metal vent tube but can't see what it goes to. Not sure I can drop the tank to find it. Just hate to pay big bucks to have a garage drop the tank to replace a $30 part.
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Old 01-11-2014, 06:53 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wpatters1229 View Post
I see that part under the RV and the hose attached to the smaller tube goes up above the tank and as such I can not see what it is attached to. It should be attached to the valve that I was talking about.

It is used to control the flow of vapors from the EVAPORATIVE system to the intake manifold. It is controlled by the vehicles main computer or ECM.
No, that's not correct, there are TWO tubes, there is one as you describe, but the one I'm referring to only goes from the tank to the neck a few inches from the gas cap.

The upper connection between the hose I'm talking about and the filler tube, if it's easier to picture, is a few inches down from the gas cap at about the point where the filler nozzle would end when inserted during a fill up.

If that hose is kinked, collapsed, or otherwise obstructed it will cause exactly what is described above, an extremely slow fill rate or the pump shuts off.

The evaporative system does nothing and has no part in filling the tank, it operates only when the engine is running.
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Old 01-11-2014, 11:53 AM   #7
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Gas filling problem

Yes that pipe is there but from what I have read that is the pipe that actually goes to what is shown as the vent tube in the diagram. It is a closed system and when that valve is stuck closed it prevents the gas tank from venting and allow the air to expel so the only way it can get out is the filler neck and that causes the pump nozzle to shut off.
All of these hoses and valves appear to be sitting ontop of the tank where really nothing should be able to damage them or cause any kind of obstruction except failure of this valve. This whole system is the same one that the Chevy Express 3500 uses but naturally modified since the gas tank is much larger and in a different place.
Hope that explains it.
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Old 01-11-2014, 12:54 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf2u View Post
No, that's not correct, there are TWO tubes, there is one as you describe, but the one I'm referring to only goes from the tank to the neck a few inches from the gas cap.

The upper connection between the hose I'm talking about and the filler tube, if it's easier to picture, is a few inches down from the gas cap at about the point where the filler nozzle would end when inserted during a fill up.

If that hose is kinked, collapsed, or otherwise obstructed it will cause exactly what is described above, an extremely slow fill rate or the pump shuts off.

The evaporative system does nothing and has no part in filling the tank, it operates only when the engine is running.
Actually you may be incorrect. It will depend on the way this specific vehicles EVAP system is designed. On older vehicles with limited EVAP control the small tube that routes up to the filler neck hole will mainly be used for tank venting. However with most newer system the EVAP system must be working properly to allow the fuel tank to fill correctly. When the vehicle is shut off the canister vent solenoid will be open to allow pressure to vent. If this solenoid is not open or the vent is restricted, the tank will not fill properly. There have been way to many cases in early EVAP systems where cob webs will cause a blockage in the EVAP vent hose and will cause extremely slow fill up times due to the restriction. Blowing out cob webs will not work. The tube must be removed and a thick wire or similar be pushed in there to remove the debris. Auto manufactures are always trying to redesign this tube to keep spiders and other debris to get into these tubes. Because of the newer fuel filling stations that try to seal around fuel filler neck, there must be a way for pressure to be removed from the tank to allow the tank to fill.

Here is the description of possible faults for a slow to fill condition:
  • Fuel tank filler pipe vent tube, if equipped
  • Fuel tank filler pipe
  • EVAP system
  • Fuel tank inlet check valve (part of the fuel tank)
  • Fuel level vent valve, if equipped (part of the Fuel Pump (FP) module)
  • Fuel system fresh air inlet
Which also brings up another point. If you decided to add an additive for some reason, if the foil was not removed first it may have lodged into the oneway check valve in the fuel tank.
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Old 12-07-2015, 09:27 PM   #9
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What was the resolution to the tank fill problem??

I have this exact same problem. It takes almost 40 minutes to put 35-40 gallons into my 55 gallon tank. I have a 2006 Four Winds 31P, on a Ford E450 chassis.
Was it a valve, or a blocked vent ?
It never ceases to amaze me how folks pursue answers to their problems, and never closes the thread with the actual finding and/or fix.
Please offer the fix, and any others who have, or had this problem, chime in with what the fix was.
It is very frustrating to lose an hour of road time, just trying to refill the tank.
Thanks in advance.
Rick
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Old 12-08-2015, 12:33 AM   #10
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Rick,

I have a 2003 Tioga 31W, also with the E450, and have had this same problem where, in about half the gas stations, the pump will act as if the tank is full and shut off, unless you fill at trickle rate. The problem didn't occur in my last few fillings after I fixed a couple of kinks in the main fuel fill line. The smaller vent line was kink-free. The kinks were located on either end of the long solid tube between the fill cap at the rear of the rig and the gas tank mid-rig. At each end there are poorly-supported flexible hose segments 8 to 10 inches long, and they were kinked restricting the flow. I simply loosened the hose clamps to stretch the hose segments and re-tightened, added better support for the solid tube weight so the hose segments don't bend under the weight, and added new circumferential clamps right at each kink so as to force open the internal flow area.

Hope that helps.

Art
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Old 12-08-2015, 11:25 AM   #11
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My Sunseeker 2300 does this from time to time. The fuel filler pipe runs pretty much parallel to the ground from the opening where the nozzel is inserted, to where it enters the fuel tank. If the area you park by the pumps is the slightest bit off level (side to side) and leaning toward filler cap side, you can have a problem. My solution is to get out the lego leveling blocks and get the rear wheels, on the filler cap side, up at least 2" or more. It gives the filler pipe a downward angle. It worked for me but what a pain in the butt.

Hope this helps and happy trails. I'd love to go on about other rv stuff but my head would explode,
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Old 12-08-2015, 04:57 PM   #12
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Not a kinked hose

Well, I just crawled under and looked up at the coupling hoses between filler inlet, and the tube 'stubs' that Ford leaves out of the tank. NO kinks or twists in the roughly 18" of flexible hose, like other forum post pictures have shown. Visually perfect plumbing connections...however, it does have approximately 2 1/2 feet (length of combined flexible hose and metal tubing distance) almost dead flat run, in both filler tube and vent line tube. My gut tells me, that this distance of dead flat, should not impede gas flow to a trickle feed. The filler line is 2" in diameter, and should at least handle half that diameter of fuel flow without cutting off. The pump nozzle is only around 3/4" diameter tube...so, that amount should free flow in a 2" diameter flat run...imho.

Another input I will offer in this head scratcher...IF turn on nozzle full force, and it clicks off shortly thereafter, then turn it back on immediately at full force, when it clicks off again (much sooner than first time) it will belch about a quart of gas back out the filler inlet onto the ground...just like the filler tube is standing full of gas.
I just can't see any reason why the gas is not entering the tank freely thru a 2" diameter tube...especially without a dip, or kink, in the plumbing run.
Any of the other forum post findings make sense. My situation don't.

My next trouble shooting effort is to try and take my camera and take a picture above the tank, between the tank and the coach floor, and see what is happening at the bend/curve in the metal tubing (Ford supplied) into the top of the tank....and then try and disconnect the length of flexible hose between the two metal tubes of the vent line, and see if air will free flow both directions, toward and into tank, and toward and back to nozzle inlet.
Beyond that, I am thoroughly dumb founded at why I can't get any more than a trickle to flow in.
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