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Old 08-30-2014, 06:42 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by elektron View Post
You do pay quite a price for an MB Diesel. If you drive 10000 miles, based on today's fuel prices with 10mpg for gasoline ($3.45) and 15 for the Diesel fuel ($3.89) for the Diesel will be $850 cheaper for fuel.

Many gasoline engined motorhomes get 6 to 8mpg. (At 6 mpg for a typical Class C then the advantage at 10K miles for the Diesel rises to $3100.) At tune up time, the Diesel will not require spark plugs, but will require a decent fuel filter and Blue-techs use DEF fluid every few thousands of miles.

As for your first paragraph, at first glance it looks good, but the RV industry says a typical motorhome owner travels 5,000 miles per year and keeps their rig for 20 years, the term of the loan it was purchased under.

Using your math then the fuel savings over the 20 years and 100,000 miles the savings might be $8,500. Except that under a 20 year loan at 7.0% interest that $10,000 Diesel engine will cost an extra $8,607.17. So the fuel savings are less than the cost to get them.

As for your second paragraph, you're numbers are a little off IMHO. A typical Class C gasser will get 8.5 to 9.0 mpg.

While I don't disagree the resale will be higher, I am skeptical you'd get $10,000 more for a 20 year old diesel Class C with 100,000 miles on it than you would for the comparable gas unit. Considering a quick search just now on several sales websites showed a typical 20 year old Class C is worth $17,000 to $20,000, I'm highly skeptical.

BTW, that same canvass of 20 year old units reveal an astounding number of them with 25k to 50k miles on them. With those units the above fuel savings go completely out the window.

All in all, I doubt there's really any savings to be had at all for the average person, and I suspect the majority of folks actually lose money on them.
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Old 08-30-2014, 06:49 AM   #16
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It is really very easy. If you want the best and most reliable driving experience get the diesel. If you want the most cost-effective approach get the gas. Diesel has many benefits but costs more. Simple.
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Old 08-30-2014, 07:04 AM   #17
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One factor not mentioned is the availability of diesel fuel. Yes, most all truck stops have it. But in smaller rural or back county areas, you could be in a pinch if you need fuel. I have 138,000 on my Ford 5.4 L V8 on my gas powered RV. The engine is still strong, the valves are quiet and it does not leak oil. I've thought about a diesel for the fuel economy, but availability, higher fuel costs and acceleration differences have scared me away.
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Old 08-30-2014, 09:57 AM   #18
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It is really very easy. If you want the best and most reliable driving experience get the diesel. If you want the most cost-effective approach get the gas. Diesel has many benefits but costs more. Simple.
Unless you live in a cold climate and/or only drive occasionally. Aside from the cost issues there is a host of documentation about how diesels do not like short trip driving or sitting for long periods. Neither seem to be much of an issue with a gasser. Ditto one has to drive often enough to change fuel blends from warm to cold.

What it really comes down to though is market offerings. There are few if any big gassers and few small diesels so most of one's choice is limited by the size and floor plan they want. That makes the whole discussion rather moot for most people.
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Old 08-30-2014, 11:32 PM   #19
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One factor not mentioned is the availability of diesel fuel. Yes, most all truck stops have it. But in smaller rural or back county areas, you could be in a pinch if you need fuel. I have 138,000 on my Ford 5.4 L V8 on my gas powered RV. The engine is still strong, the valves are quiet and it does not leak oil. I've thought about a diesel for the fuel economy, but availability, higher fuel costs and acceleration differences have scared me away.
Not me. I enjoy the superior driving performance and have more than adequate acceleration while enjoying quite a bit better fuel mileage. It's not just the engine. The Sprinter chassis has very good performance. Steering, braking, cornering are all strong points for a Sprinter, far superior to almost all the competition (The Crafter is at least Equal, since it's the SAME vehicle with a different engine).

With the miles you have on your gasser, it's very highly depreciated. That number of miles on a heavy duty Diesel is considered just breaking it in. The resale of a typical Diesel is better than a gasser.

I don't expect to be driving a lot for ever. At some point I'll want to get my equity out. The Diesel will have equity, more than a gasoline engined version and will have, ultimately, a lower cost.

I've heard, but cannot confirm that the high altitude performance is far better in the Sprinter Diesel than the gasoline engined RVs as well. It appears that the people who build these RVs are in favor of the Diesel as well. Even though they cost more, they also SELL better. The main reason, is fuel economy. The better performance and longevity is just extra icing.
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Old 08-30-2014, 11:33 PM   #20
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It is really very easy. If you want the best and most reliable driving experience get the diesel. If you want the most cost-effective approach get the gas. Diesel has many benefits but costs more. Simple.
Cost effective only in the short term.
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Old 08-31-2014, 02:08 AM   #21
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Unless you live in a cold climate and/or only drive occasionally. Aside from the cost issues there is a host of documentation about how diesels do not like short trip driving or sitting for long periods. Neither seem to be much of an issue with a gasser. Ditto one has to drive often enough to change fuel blends from warm to cold.

What it really comes down to though is market offerings. There are few if any big gassers and few small diesels so most of one's choice is limited by the size and floor plan they want. That makes the whole discussion rather moot for most people.
If Daimler Benz had not purchased Chrysler we probably wouldn't be seeing the Spinter sold in this country. After 1945, there were SEVERE tariffs placed against European vehicles that effectively kept them from being sold here. MB (Mercedes Benz) sold Chrysler but retained Freightliner and sells the Sprinter as a Freightliner as well. Their success has been great enough that they just ended their partnership with VW and have ceased providing the Sprinter to VW (Sold as the Crafter).

What you are saying about Diesels not liking short runs, clearly isn't a problem for companies like Fedex who use the Sprinter Diesel for their delivery vehicles that make constant short runs and show no ill effects from it. In my neighborhood, there is a DOG Groomer and a local Supermarket both of whom use the Sprinter Diesel for short runs and clearly show no ill effects. The Supermarket's Diesel is at least 3 years old and still going strong.

I picked up my Sprinter in cold weather and had to run my LP furnace all night for a week. It had NO problems starting at near freezing temperatures then and like my VW I expect none this winter. I received adequate heat in a very short time. My VW burned out 1 of it's glow plugs and still started at zero degrees.

Acceleration is such that I can leave automobiles in the "dust" at traffic lights. It's not extremely fast once it upshifts a gear or two, but it certainly gets to 75 more quickly that I imagined it could. With three times the weight, I can drive the same pace as the typical automobile driver does in traffic, if I want to. (I don't try to since I time my arrival at lights so as to maximize fuel economy and seldom have to use braking) The Sprinter, by the way, charges the battery when coasting.

I don't know what experience you have had with Diesel engines. I had 150 of them at one time. Some, like one 410 hp model, might sit for weeks and had no problem with starting and running even in sub freezing weather. The biggest problem was NOT the engine, but the batteries. We kept the batteries indoors and warm.

These were NOT modern diesels. They were engines of a type not often seen today, they were Industrial quality. They put typical USA gasoline truck engines to shame. They were Detroit Diesel, Caterpillar, and John Deere brands.

They don't actually cost more to purchase when they are at the 400 hp size since it would take about 550 hp in a gasoline engine to equal that performance. Gasoline engines of this size are almost unheard of now.

General Motors who USED to own Detroit Diesel, an excellent brand, also made some very bad engines, both gasoline and one Diesel that has left bad memories in this country that a properly made Diesel doesn't deserve.

This was the 350 cu in V8 in an Oldsmobile 88. This was the worst execution of a engine in recent memory, almost as bad as that in the Chevrolet Vega which blew head gaskets and broke blocks with alacrity.

I had that Oldsmobile. When it was all done in two years we had gone through 5 engines. The last one did hold together for 70,000 miles. The first one didn't reach 20K.

Much of what people cite when they criticize the past behavior of Diesels is from this era and from these makers. GM which had excellent engines in their Detroit Diesels also made the worst engine in the GMC/Oldsmobile light duty engine which was completely outclassed by the VW Diesels of that same era.

The OLD problems that truckers had to deal with, have been almost totally eliminated with modern technology. Diesels with Common Rail injection can now run well and long at far lower loading that in the past. Light loads then could quickly destroy an engine. Injection systems that were inaccurate in their metering and failed to properly atomize the fuel have been replaced by Common Rail systems using pressures up to 1900 BAR. This injection alone increased economy significantly.

Cold staring, which once terrorized the Diesel owner, has given way to automatic quick heating glow plugs that allow easy starting at virtually all temperatures. Controlled by very high speed computers the problems of the past have almost all melted away.

There are still problems with fuel gelling in Diesel and the growth of Algae. Gasoline still has the problem that the methanol used to clean it's exhaust can cause fuel line freezing and short runs cause the fuel tank to condensate water and cold exhaust can ruin the exhaust system. The Benzine used in Gasoline is a known carcinogen (so was MTBE) and exposure to gasoline vapor over time can cause cancer.

Dirty Diesel fuel is no longer a problem so the sludge that used to build up in fuel systems is no longer found. Modern Diesel fuel dissolves the build up in systems which had used old Diesel No. 2 Premium fuel. Diesel fuel is far less likely to combust due to static electricity. It is safer to store and use.

The engine in the MB Sprinter is a Turbo Charged unit. It can compress intake air easily as the engine needs it. From my observations this is why the Sprinter does a far better job in the mountains that gasoline engine, which may be far larger.

As technology has progressed the use of large gasoline engines has almost completely died out. If not for the extra cost, the Diesel would probably have replaced the Daimler/Maybach Explosion engine by now.

The additional cost is a problem for those wishing to purchase a premium this engine. Even though it's cheaper to OWN, that extra money is a barrier to many people. So gasoline engines will still be sold.

It's interesting how little most people know about the COST of running engines. Most NEVER really consider the cost of gasoline in their purchases, but the same people seem to know about all the old no longer extant problems of OLD Diesel engines and use that as a reason to avoid technology that is clearly better. This cannot be argued with when initial purchase price is the obstacle.
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Old 08-31-2014, 03:04 AM   #22
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As for your first paragraph, at first glance it looks good, but the RV industry says a typical motorhome owner travels 5,000 miles per year and keeps their rig for 20 years, the term of the loan it was purchased under.

Using your math then the fuel savings over the 20 years and 100,000 miles the savings might be $8,500. Except that under a 20 year loan at 7.0% interest that $10,000 Diesel engine will cost an extra $8,607.17. So the fuel savings are less than the cost to get them.
Note that I covered both extremes of gasoline economy. At best some people get 10 mpg in their RV and some get 4, although this has been rising and will probably continue to do so with better fuel injection and transmission technology. Some older Sprinters got 20 mpg.
Quote:
As for your second paragraph, you're numbers are a little off IMHO. A typical Class C gasser will get 8.5 to 9.0 mpg.
That was based on actual reports of owners, some of whom were pulling trailers and getting as low as 6 mpg.
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While I don't disagree the resale will be higher, I am skeptical you'd get $10,000 more for a 20 year old diesel Class C with 100,000 miles on it than you would for the comparable gas unit. Considering a quick search just now on several sales websites showed a typical 20 year old Class C is worth $17,000 to $20,000, I'm highly skeptical.
I doubt that a 20 year old gasoline power RV will be able to be sold. Technology is changing very rapidly. The features people want are much more biased toward modern technology than they used to be. I had originally wanted a Winnebago Rialta which gets about 18 mpg on gasoline. I was expecting to pay about $13 to $15K for one of the last production units from 2005. But when I starting to serious consider this I pulled the old literature and realized how impractical they were. A major part of that impracticality was it's lack of connectivity to modern devices, such as Cellular Phones and High Definition Television, CD and DVD playing and GPS. This technology is progressing and will be a factor for many people with they start to look seriously at cheap RVs which are over 10 years old.

I bought my wife TWO new cars last year because the first one did not support true hands free telephone use. What's it worth to have an RV that the phone operates hands free (mine does) as compared to one that does not? What's a Rialta with a 12" analog only TV worth when I have DVDs and CDs that it's VHS player cannot use? While a lot of this technology can be retrofitted, you have to have the space as well. Modern RVs tend to have Satellite TV hookups. Drilling holes and running cables can lead to roof leaks and other problems. Older technology will continue to decline in value.

When I was looking for a used Sprinter based Class C I was seeing from $10 to $20K more being asked for and gotten for some brands of Sprinter chassis RVs. RVs based on the Sprinter will probably bring more differential when prices of fuel are higher. At this time fuel prices have dropped even in the face of increased warfare in the Middle East, largely because USA has become the largest petroleum producer in the World.
Quote:

BTW, that same canvass of 20 year old units reveal an astounding number of them with 25k to 50k miles on them. With those units the above fuel savings go completely out the window.
If someone drives so little, it's often because once they have driven a bit, they find the expense to be so great that they have to budget to travel. People spending $120 a day for gasoline then getting to an RV park and paying $50 to $70 more to sit there very soon ration their activities. In this case a Diesel would be a far better choice as the painful price of refueling will be significantly less and thus the RV will likely be driven more.

There are a lot of people who are willing to lose ALL their initial investment and will keep a vehicle until it has no value. I'm a cheap skate. I'll keep changing vehicles to maintain equity and maintain the value of the "investment." Once again, anyone buying TOYS should be able to lose 100% or else shouldn't be buying such things.

As someone mentioned, there aren't that many Diesels in the sub 30' range at this time. But they seem to be the impetus for the recovery of sales of the RV industry from what I read in industry sources. If fuel consumption was not the death knell for RV sales I doubt that we'd be seeing Diesels even now. We are just lucky that MB offered the Sprinter/Crafter to the RV industry.
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All in all, I doubt there's really any savings to be had at all for the average person, and I suspect the majority of folks actually lose money on them.
You may be overlooking the fact that SOME RVs are purchased with Home Equity Loans by people who pay taxes. In those cases the RV cost is partially offset by tax breaks. It's not unusual to have a 2% Home Equity loan and the ability to write off the interest. That's the smart buy if you can do it. Automobile interest is NOT tax deductible but home equity interest is.

A 20 year old RV has precious little value to it. This is even more true if the engine in it is a gasoline engine, which simply doesn't have the same warranty terms or longevity of a Diesel. At 20 years almost everything inside has probably been replaced.

Most of the Sprinters I have seen on the used market have 50K to 70K on them. Is this because the people who own them enjoy them more, can afford to drive more, or because they aren't as problematic with service and restricted on warranty, I do not know.

Since Diesels in smaller (under 30') RVs are relatively new the value can be expected to RISE over time even more than it is now as Diesel become increasing more desirable as fuel prices continue to equalize.

Since I've been tracking this for the past five years or so I see ample indication that many RVs cannot be sold. Typically the older ones have little to no value regardless of how nice they were when new. Things have changed greatly.

No one should EVER buy such toys with the expectation of being able to get ANY money back out. But if you do, it's going to be the desirable MODERN units that sell again. There were NO used Sprinters available when I purchased mine new. I did notice a very significant higher price being paid for the Diesels. Considering how expense repairs are now, the length of the warranty is itself worth thousands.

Buyers, with the Boomers retiring now, do spend more, have more desire for luxury and less for sitting in RV parks that I think earlier RV buyers did. The modern buyer also wants more gadget connectivity and with laws banning the holding of cell phones, needs to have modern electronics.

Because of the changes in the expectations of the NEW RV buyer many older RVs will not have the value they might have had in the past.

Would you rather have an old Chevrolet or the same aged Rolls Royce?
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Old 08-31-2014, 03:57 AM   #23
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... have read posts before to 'buy your third one first" ...
This is good advice, and I can almost guarantee that your third RV will be smaller than your first, and diesel powered.
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Old 08-31-2014, 08:26 AM   #24
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There is no question a diesel is cheaper per mile to operate. If you keep a vehicle long enough like 80K you can even over come the added purchase cost of a diesel.
There are MANY False ideas about diesels on this site. Short trips on diesels are not bad. its when the engine is started and never run long enough to warm up full that is the problem. Sitting parked for a diesel is not a problem either.
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:04 AM   #25
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There is no question a diesel is cheaper per mile to operate.

I disagree. After owning 6 MHs, 4 gas, 2 diesels AND using a spreadsheet to track costs, the diesels were more expensive per mile to operate. And I'm only talking about fuel and maintenance. If you throw a loan on top of it then there is no question that a diesel is more expensive to run.
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Old 08-31-2014, 10:41 AM   #26
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I disagree that older RVs can't be sold. In reality, at least in my part of the US, there is very strong demand for used RVs <$30k. I've sold 2 in this scenario within days and had multiple offers. First time buyers or young families love them!

The ones that are tough to sell of that vintage are >30 foot models.

Hands free cell use is a simple upgrade as is satellite and other technology if so desired. Flat screen TV is also. USB charging ports? Easy. DVR instead of DVD player? Easy.

I like the sprinter chassis rigs and am glad that Ford has the Transit coming. Even with a large amount of down payment, Just couldn't justify the monthly $ differential for something that gets less use than I wish due to the reality of being a working stiff with a growing family still at home. Virtually all trips for me are <500 miles. This is true for most working families, save the exception of that special trip to a national park. It's not the fuel expense - it's the time we have off of work. Maybe it is also because I live in a part of the US with so many camping options - from coast to alpine - nearby that saves on trip length.

Oh - and I don't see any issues with climbing mountains in the west with a gasser, even when towing our 2003 Chevy Tracker. My rig is heavy for its size due to being full fiberglass rather than the luan / filon sandwich.
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Old 08-31-2014, 05:31 PM   #27
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Gas or Diesel ... which is best?

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As someone mentioned, there aren't that many Diesels in the sub 30' range at this time.



Since Diesels in smaller (under 30') RVs are relatively new the value can be expected to RISE over time even more than it is now as Diesel become increasing more desirable as fuel prices continue to equalize.




Would you rather have an old Chevrolet or the same aged Rolls Royce?


Funny, I just looked on RV Trader, there's pages and pages of diesel Ford and Sprinters. Surprising how many of them are only a few years old and listed for $35k to $50k, less than one third to half price in just a few years.


An old Chevy for sure, service anywhere and plentiful parts, from many, many vendors, which means no being held for ransom by the OEM company because they have a monopoly. Case in point, the EXACT same HID headlight ballast is used in a Chrysler Pacifica, Volkswagens and Mercedes. If you buy it from Chrysler it's $162, if you buy it from Volksy it's $92, if you buy it from Benz it's $622.

I hope you still enjoy that M-B diesel after it's out of warranty.
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Old 08-31-2014, 07:50 PM   #28
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Funny, I just looked on RV Trader, there's pages and pages of diesel Ford and Sprinters. Surprising how many of them are only a few years old and listed for $35k to $50k, less than one third to half price in just a few years.
Wow, please send me some of the links you found for Sprinter-based RVs just a few years old and for only $35-50k.
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