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Old 08-31-2014, 08:16 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by smiller View Post
Wow, please send me some of the links you found for Sprinter-based RVs built within the last few years for only $35-50k. I can't seem to find the pages and pages of such listings.

As I said, go to RV Trader, select C Class and type in the keyword "diesel".

Ummmmm, BTW, they only started making Sprinter based Class C's about 10 years ago, so it's not like you're going to find 15 or 20 year old ones.

But as an example, here's a 2008 with 55k miles on it, the asking price is $50k.

Oddly enough though, there's also a 2007 gasser, Ford V10 chassis with just 16k on it for the same $50k.

So it looks like the guy who bought the Sprinter paid $20k extra for a 6' shorter coach and is looking at the same resale value (year new but with 3 times the mileage) as the guy who bought the gasser.
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:56 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Murf2u View Post
As I said, go to RV Trader, select C Class and type in the keyword "diesel".
And as I said, I can't find any Sprinter-based RVs a few years old in the price range you quoted. 2008 is now six years old, and even then it was at the top of your range. Where are the 'pages and pages' of 'last few years' Sprinter RVs for $35-50k? A 2010 or newer goes for around $65-70k. But yes, you may find plenty of Ford-based gas vehicles at good prices

Anyway, if it thrills you may find an example or two at lower prices, if you want to look hard enough. I don't.
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Old 09-01-2014, 08:04 AM   #31
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Funny, I just looked on RV Trader, there's pages and pages of diesel Ford and Sprinters. Surprising how many of them are only a few years old and listed for $35k to $50k, less than one third to half price in just a few years.
Not wishing to be a downer, but... The industry is flying high right now in the face of fuel prices that threatened to kill it for the past several years. This is because the current generation of retiring boomers are jumping into RVs. The boomer generation lasted perhaps five years. I'm on the tail end of that era.

So as the new RVers get tired of them, prices will probably collapse for all the brands that do not have features that set them above others. People come with all types of logic circuits which is why there are many successful brands. Dissimilar people looking at the same things will see, hear, and smell the same object with different insights.

You clearly service the "tinkerer" mind set. I'm of the type that prefers NOT to have to rebuild the errors of the manufacturer on a daily basis. FORD = Fix or Repair Daily (a common joke, another is Ford built it first Chevy built it Right).

It's the job of sales people to figure out what is important to people.
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An old Chevy for sure, service anywhere and plentiful parts, from many, many vendors, which means no being held for ransom by the OEM company because they have a monopoly.
Having received over $300,000 (for myself and others) in warranty compensation from US brands GM, Ford, Chrysler,as well as Honda and and others in "secret" and denied warranty on items which were often NOT covered according to the dealer I have a different perspective. Having placed many a call to the CEO of these corporations I trust the more venerable brands which dodn't make me waste my time in arguing over their defective products (like the 20 million GM series 200 transmissions, or the millions of Fords with the wrong sized pistons, or the defective transmission seals in certain Chrysler models and bad head gaskets, fenders, upholstery and wheels on some Honda models. All makers have their problems. Toyota has huge issues with poor customer service and a myriad of defects in design, particular unintended acceleration and erratic braking and in their Hybrids.

The OEM companies from my experience cannot always be trusted to provide a replacement part of equal quality. GM had quite a BATTLE (Ford and Chrysler benefited from this) with the industry suppliers because their cost of verifying the quality of those OEM parts was prohibitive. They essentially told their suppliers that if they didn't improve their quality and stopped shipping their defective parts to GM they'd go elsewhere (overseas) for parts. A typical box of SCREWS for example would generally contain 103 of these. Two of three might be missing their heads or the sockets would be unformed. We all know about GM's latest publicly revealed ignition switch issues. THE US makers are notorious for hiding and ignoring defects. The "foreign" makers are far better (but not guiltless as well at times).

Finding replacement radiators, starters, and other items from the (former) Big Three has often been a nightmare. I found that they seldom stocked any parts for products. A car I purchased around 1973 had 5 replacement engines (under warranty) but the real problem was it sat on the back lot of the dealer for 18 of it's first 36 months because there were no parts for it.

I don't share your enthusiasm for dealers of the bye gone era. One of the locals that I dislike the most is a Mercedes-Benz dealer who has the most ignorant and sloppy service staff I have ever encountered. They once failed to service my car properly and returned it to me with a flat tire.
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Case in point, the EXACT same HID headlight ballast is used in a Chrysler Pacifica, Volkswagens and Mercedes. If you buy it from Chrysler it's $162, if you buy it from Volksy it's $92, if you buy it from Benz it's $622.
Not unusual for many items across the market. The internet makes it easy to find out such things and public pressure on makers can affect the occurrence of pricing travesties. The Neiman keys I have in my pockets (one with the VW logo and in the other pocket one from Mercedes Benz, were at one time $620 each. They are still outrageous, but can be easily had, and programmed for 1/10 of that now.
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I hope you still enjoy that M-B diesel after it's out of warranty.
I won't keep it that long. Although to be fair, since the printed warranty does not prevent defects from being covered under the implied warranty of merchantability I'd have no fear of manufacturer's defects being covered BECAUSE it's a Mercedes-Benz truck engine. I do not have the same level of confidence with the products of the Big Two or the Japanese because they have wasted so much of my time as I forced them to repair their mistakes. The BEST manufacturers I've dealt with over the past 40 years have been Volkswagen, and Honda. By the way, GM and Chrysler were both my customers. I walked the floors of their plants in Maryland and Delaware (and MB in Stuttgart, and Winnebago in Forest City Iowa).

As I mentioned before, or maybe I didn't, at least $200,000 of warranty work that I had done for myself and others was on vehicles where the owner was told by the Dealer that the damage was not covered by warranty. A woman who worked with my wife had a camshaft break in her Ford Mustang (another common problem, they broke and wore off the cam lobes by the tens of thousands). I found out that she had paid a local Ford dealer over $400 to replace that defectively sourced OEM cam. I called her, advised her on the proper LEGAL procedure for seeking a refund (she should NEVER have paid in the first place). She had her money back in 3 days.

Same with numerous series 200 GM transmissions, Ford pistons, Chryslers, Hondas, and others where I helped people (and myself with 5 Chevy S5 transmissions, 5 Olds V8 Diesels, Ford pistons etc. etc.) The Chrysler Minivan is notorious in that era you talk about for burning oil due to valve stem seals. I also helped a friend get back his $400 for a Harley-Davidson repair where the dealer told him the problem with the clutch was a factory defect and they still charged him.

I had several automobiles that sprung radiator leaks. I had others that the radiators clogged up with sand because the maker was sloppy in not cleaning that sand out of the blocks after casting. Detroit Diesels, for example (I had dozens of these) painted the INTERIOR of the blocks to retain sand that could ruin a radiator.

The most frustration that I experienced over the years were in electrics. I was seldom able to replace a starter that was as good as the OEM. I spend $10s of thousands on stater and radiator repairs, cracked blocks, worn cylinders and broken pistons because of the lack of quality of OEM parts, in that same era where you have such a nostalgic feel for.

What is happening here is quite common. (some) Dealers are well aware that many of the constant stream of defects are covered under warranty. They get a constant stream of service advisories. So they file for and obtain compensation, prescribed labor, and cost of parts to repair these items, and then charge the customer a 2nd time. This double dipping occurs only because the buyer in general is uninformed.

I wouldn't buy any vehicle that I don't believe that I can get good service work done on it. When my MB warranty is expired, and particularly if I sense any reluctance on the part of the MB/Freightliner dealer to honor warranty issues my Winnebago will be long gone.

My 2nd car spent half it's life at the dealer (GM) The first one, was a piece of junk (GM). The third one was an AUDI, and was ruined by that Same MB dealer I mentioned. My brother, against my advice, had 2 cars from that dealer that was badly serviced and which he dumped on the same day after 18 months, as I expected was going to be the case.

My brother had a unique experience. His GM Sierra lost all four wheel brakes when he pressed the brake pedal one day. GM had a problem (not long ago) with substandard quality of materials in brakes lines and they rusted through, just like their rocker panels did for many decades until they followed the Europeans and Japanese and spent more money on whole body rustproofing.

I am not tolerant of the behavior of low grade dealers or manufacturers. All makes suffer from some of these, even with a Manufacturer who is trusted.

As I said before, I don't buy toys like these if I cannot afford to lose 100% of the cost of them. I really don't trust the automotive industry. They require a lot of work to receive good value and justice from. German toys can be particularly bad. VW replaced the wiring harness in my wife's Diesel under warranty at 76,000 miles. They then gave me $1500 back to apply to the next sale.

You may not be aware that Chinese made counterfeit parts are plaguing the replacement parts industry. They look exactly the same, but are often bogus. I seem to recall that a DC10 crashed in Canada killing 250 soldiers because of this (or maybe I am wrong on that).

That being said, many of those OLD problems have been resolved. If I wanted one, I'd buy a Sierra Pickup truck even with all those old issues because I am confident I can get the issues resolved to my satisfaction.

Not so with old out of warranty products. I am successful at managing a fleet of automotive products, indeed I just retired partly as a result of this.

So while I bring up many disgusting and distasteful items of history, statistically things today are much better. As an assertive consumer I am confident in properly made MODERN products. Before I retired ASE was also one of my customers.

Enjoy your cheap "OEM" parts. (This is not meant to be nasty) I hope you really do enjoy that which you feel confident in. I do.
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Old 09-01-2014, 08:06 AM   #32
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And as I said, I can't find any Sprinter-based RVs a few years old in the price range you quoted. 2008 is now six years old, and even then it was at the top of your range. Where are the 'pages and pages' of 'last few years' Sprinter RVs for $35-50k? A 2010 or newer goes for around $65-70k. But yes, you may find plenty of Ford-based gas vehicles at good prices

Anyway, if it thrills you may find an example or two at lower prices, if you want to look hard enough. I don't.

The MW dictionary defines "few" as;

1 :consisting of or amounting to only a small number <one of our few pleasures>

2 :at least some but indeterminately small in number —used with a <caught a few fish>

Considering we were talking about 20 year old units I fail to see how 6 years couldn't be a "few".
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Old 09-01-2014, 08:13 AM   #33
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Having received over $300,000 (for myself and others) in warranty compensation from US brands GM, Ford, Chrysler,as well as Honda and and others in "secret" and denied warranty on items which were often NOT covered according to the dealer I have a different perspective.



As I mentioned before, or maybe I didn't, at least $200,000 of warranty work that I had done for myself and others was on vehicles where the owner was told by the Dealer that the damage was not covered by warranty.

Now THAT is depreciation. LMAO.
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Old 09-01-2014, 09:59 AM   #34
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I disagree. After owning 6 MHs, 4 gas, 2 diesels AND using a spreadsheet to track costs, the diesels were more expensive per mile to operate. And I'm only talking about fuel and maintenance. If you throw a loan on top of it then there is no question that a diesel is more expensive to run.
I'd like to see the basis on which you think that the cost of operation of (modern) Diesel technology is not superior to today's comparable gasoline units. I'd like to see your spreadsheet. I don't think you have made a valid comparison.

Seems that the Trucking, Rail, Shipping (ocean), and Bus industries don't agree with your assertion.

I ran a comprehensive study comparing the VW Jetta Diesel to the Toyota Prius. The Diesel was considerably cheaper to own and operate, even with it's expensive 70,000 mile service which included replacing a timing belt (since removed for a steel chain). In some ways this was an unfair comparison because Hybrids seldom approach their Mileage ratings (missing often by 25% and more and causing the 2008 MPG calculation methods to be rewritten although still inaccurate compared to how people actually drive) and Diesels once "broken in" always exceed it. The 60 mpg Prius averages about 35mpg in general use, and as low as 25 mpg in Arizona while the Diesel VW is far more consistent and actually can exceed 50mpg on the highway while averaging much more than EPA claims.

The assumptions I used were very conservative with total life for the Prius at 150,000 miles and the Jetta rather understated at 250,000 miles. I did not include the replacement of the Prius battery ($5800 dollars then). I did include driving in typical Northeastern weather with fog heavy condensation and cold winter weather. This basis destroyed the supposed advantages of the Hybrid design of that car.

The reason for this, is the heat loss of the electric accessories that the Prius must use to defog and heat when the 1.5 liter Miller Cycle engine is not running. In a warm dry climate the Hybrid does better but it still does not win. (Not mentioning the accelerated tire wear hybrids cause either).

The air pollution advantage for particulates, CO, and CO2 were better for the Diesel as well. But when I did that comparison NOX was still uncontrolled.. Diesel engines of that era, just a few years ago could not control NOX.

Blu-Tech Diesel technology and Common Rail injection does control NOX. That is why I ALWAYS reference Modern Diesels, not the old duty and noisy one. Cummins Diesels now use this as well as Mercedes-Benz and others.

Which Diesels in what vehicles did you have? You ARE supporting the concept that many people are unfamiliar with MODERN Diesel technology and make inaccurate assumptions based on the PAST beliefs.

Did you Diesels have the typical acrid burning rubber exhaust odor?
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:08 AM   #35
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And as I said, I can't find any Sprinter-based RVs a few years old in the price range you quoted. 2008 is now six years old, and even then it was at the top of your range. Where are the 'pages and pages' of 'last few years' Sprinter RVs for $35-50k? A 2010 or newer goes for around $65-70k. But yes, you may find plenty of Ford-based gas vehicles at good prices

Anyway, if it thrills you may find an example or two at lower prices, if you want to look hard enough. I don't.
If you look at RV Trader and find the Sprinters with DODGE emblems on the front, they DO NOT have the resale value that those with the Mercedes-Benz Tri-Star on the front do. This is perhaps why it is often said that nearly 90% of the Dodge branded Sprinter Chassis owners replaced the Dodge Emblem with the Tri-Star emblem. It's only about $300 to do this. But it can add saleability where Dodge itself is problematic. I see price differences for this reason alone in the THOUSANDS.

The Sprinters prior to 2010 also tend to have a terrible ODOR inside. It's the odor of Diesel Fuel and Exhaust. In this regard I am willing to offer a service for ONLY $500 of removing that odor for people. I'm in Central Maryland and will drive (In my Itasca) up to 500 miles at $1 per mile (additional to the $500 price) to deodorize your RV if the cause is ONLY the Diesel fuel odors in Sprinters that do not have Blue-Tech engines.
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:16 AM   #36
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Try renting some different ones first.
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:22 AM   #37
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These are all great insights and clearly from folks who have the experience to back it up - thanks.
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:23 AM   #38
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Now THAT is depreciation. LMAO.
It's tragic that the vast majority of buyers pay for these types of services because they don't know the law or their rights.
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:25 AM   #39
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The MW dictionary defines "few" as;

1 :consisting of or amounting to only a small number <one of our few pleasures>

2 :at least some but indeterminately small in number —used with a <caught a few fish>

Considering we were talking about 20 year old units I fail to see how 6 years couldn't be a "few".
How can you be talking about 20 year old units when the first Sprinters arrived in 2006 and were sold with Dodge/Freightliner badging.
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:49 AM   #40
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Read what's posted before you try to reply and you won't get confused between a post about 20-year-old motorhomes and a different post about six-year-old Sprinters.
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:53 AM   #41
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It's tragic that the vast majority of buyers pay for these types of services because they don't know the law or their rights.

No I was talking about the loss of $100,000 in five minutes. LOL.
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Old 09-01-2014, 10:43 PM   #42
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.......

You clearly service the "tinkerer" mind set. I'm of the type that prefers NOT to have to rebuild the errors of the manufacturer on a daily basis. FORD = Fix or Repair Daily (a common joke, another is Ford built it first Chevy built it Right).

It's the job of sales people to figure out what is important to people.
Having received over $300,000 (for myself and others) in warranty compensation from US brands GM, Ford, Chrysler,as well as Honda and.......
something has to be wrong if you are have that much warranty work on all those brands of vehicles.

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Originally Posted by elektron View Post
...........
1 I wouldn't buy any vehicle that I don't believe that I can get good service work done on it. When my MB warranty is expired, and particularly if I sense any reluctance on the part of the MB/Freightliner dealer to honor warranty issues my Winnebago will be long gone.
...........

My brother had a unique experience. His GM Sierra lost all four wheel brakes when he pressed the brake pedal one day. GM had a problem (not long ago) with substandard quality of materials in brakes lines and they rusted through, just like their rocker panels did for many decades until they followed the Europeans and Japanese and spent more money on whole body rustproofing.

I am not tolerant of the behavior of low grade dealers or manufacturers. All makes suffer from some of these, even with a Manufacturer who is trusted.

As I said before, I don't buy toys like these if I cannot afford to lose 100% of the cost of them. I really don't trust the automotive industry. They require a lot of work to receive good value and justice from. German toys can be particularly bad.
.......

2 Not so with old out of warranty products. I am successful at managing a fleet of automotive products, indeed I just retired partly as a result of this.
.........
1 I am a tinker, But I will not buy a vehicle I don't think can be trusted. As long as I am able to do so I will Do ALL my own service work. I trust NO dealerships any longer.
I liked GM when the different brands in it had competition between them,(like the fact that they had thier own engine designs) Buth those days are gone forever Now it is just a Corporation without a soul.
GM= Got Mechanic?

2 I find the older out of warranty vehicle much more reliable that the newer computerized wonders.

I drive a 1999 school bus with over 200K on the clock. it is a Navstar (IH)
This is the bus I drive on my daily route. Most reliable vehicle I have ever Drove.
Last Friday night I took the HS band to a football game 40 miles away. I was told to take a newer (air conditioned) bus. So I grabbed one of the Newer (2007?) C2 buses it has the MB I6 diesel. 63K on it, half way there check engine light comes on. I got on the radio to mention it and I'm told "ITS NORMAL" for that bus. This bus has a history of white "smoke" while driving down the road.
The most ironic part of maintenance on our Buses is by far the cheapest buses to maintain AND REPAIR are the older buses.
And it seems the older the Better in that respect.
The only real reason they seem to be replaces is the body rust.




Quote:
Originally Posted by elektron View Post
If you look at RV Trader and find the Sprinters with DODGE emblems on the front, they DO NOT have the resale value that those with the Mercedes-Benz Tri-Star on the front do. This is perhaps why it is often said that nearly 90% of the Dodge branded Sprinter Chassis owners replaced the Dodge Emblem with the Tri-Star emblem. It's only about $300 to do this. But it can add saleability where Dodge itself is problematic. I see price differences for this reason alone in the THOUSANDS.
........
I was parked beside a guy in CO in 2011 who had a sprinter based RV. He said he paid half price for it because it had been a rental unit and had very high miles for a RV.

AS I recall UPS bought some Sprinters years ago.
They got rid of them in a hurry. My friends that worked there told me the bodys were not holding up any where near acceptable levels.

After seeing the quality of of Freightliner/MB/Thomas (All three Daimler owned) school buses, I trust MB even less than i did 10 years ago.
It seems that MB and all its holdings are now infected with Global Corporate Greed.
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