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Old 07-18-2010, 03:35 AM   #1
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Jayco

Re: 2010 Jayco Seneca 36 MS

I can relate to the Jayco owners' complaints. Won't bore you with the nitty gritty stupid design found in our new Jayco, but would like some help/advice. The sewer line termination is one of the most stupidly designed features I've found. The sewer hose makes an S curve to go down through a heavy PVC tube mounted under the hatch where the line and water connections are located. It would have been very simple to have the hose drop straight down through a port (if one had been made!) so there would be no S bend/curve in the hose. This also prevents (as far as I can determine...but if someone has an idea, I'm open to it) attaching a clear acrylic piece so the black water can be monitored when flushing/draining these (there are 2 sets of black & gray tanks) tanks. Have tried connecting a 45 acrylic piece, but this creates a hump that backs up black and gray water.

Also if anyone has this coach w/2 sets of tanks, would appreciate it if you'd tell me which handles operate which gate valves. I have a back bath and a side bath (toilet & sink only). Have only had this coach a few weeks and still experimenting to find out which pulls operate which gate valves.

You'd think the jerks @ Jayco would be a bit more specific when they tag these, but let's face it: The "designers" and "engineers" never use the bloody things...they use computer model design, not common sense.

The nifty pantry w/4 pull out drawers is another dumb design: When turning or on rough road (what roads aren't rough?), the drawers come rolling out, slam against the door and force it open! Am having dealer come up with something to prevent this.

Here's my recent newspaper column about this. Sorry for the glitch, but think you'll get the gist of it. Title: Do these people ever use the products they build?

Recently we bought a new RV. It's bigger, has some good
features and cost a lot more. We're using it for extended travel
and for my writing assignments that generate topics for this column.
You'd think when someone spends a boat load of money for
something; a car
, house, RV or anything else, they could expect
to take possession of a product that meets the quality and design
hype manufacturers advertise.
Wrong!
How many poorly designed features have you experienced
because some overpaid designer or engineer came up with
something they haven
't a clue whether or not it makes sense? I . RVs ,fU"f,.marvelsof ~ scaled d~wn house complete Wth mul-

;
ttple baihiooms, AC,kitchens WIth the latest gadgetry for gourmet
cooking and all the other cool things found in a house.
.

But they also come with the same problems: Leaky plumb-
.
ing because someone was in a hurry to get off work and screwed
on a connection that cracked and flooded a bathroom (yep, it
happened to us)
. Just like a modern home we have a neat pantry

)
with sliding drawers that can store all sorts of spices and other
stuff. But when you make a turn or ride a rough road (what road
isn
't rough?), the drawers slam forward popping open the door
creating a mess if someone isn't there to stop everything from
crashing to the floor.
This latter experience happened recently when we were

.
returning from the maiden trip to test our new RY. My wife had
to sit on the floor again
st the pantry door so the drawers wouldn't
pop
it open as they slid forward when I made a turn!
A great design, huh?
You gotta wonder if the wizards who design these things ever
use them in real life situations. I doubt it
. They probably put
them on a "test track" that's smooth as glass
, has no bumps and
perfectly engineered turns that meet Indy 500 standards. After
such a test, they crow about their accomplishment
.

How about stocking the thing with all the stuff RVers take,
driving them on a highway, use the facilities, hook up water
lines
; holding tank flushing lines and then hope everything
doesn
't flood or come flying out of the pantry?
These people are like those who write instructions on how to
assemble something. They haven
't a bloody clue how to assem-

;
ble (orin the RV instance use) the thing they designed. And to
make matters worse, they can't write instructions that make any
sense because they don
't know how to do it!

.
Our RV manufacturer likes to tout its "Amish quality." We all
know Amish folk are terrific craftsmen who take pride in their
work. That's fine as far as it goes
. The cabinetry so far seems to
be quality. But that's the only part the Amish influence comes
into play. The Amish didn't botch the plumbing connection that

flooded our bathroom. The Amish didn't design the pantry that
won't stay shut because the drawers slam against it when turning
or on a rough road~
Perhaps this is the reason so many things are built in foreign
countries
. They've seen the sloppy work and poor design and
found ways to make something better. (Except for Toyota who
seems to have fallen into the trap of poor des
ign.) On the other
hand, we are also flooded with cheap stuff from Communist
China made
in shops where automatons work ungodly hours for
pennie
s a day.
I wonder how long it will be before a foreign made RV hits
the mark
.et. Just think of the potential market for something that
ha
s better quality control and has been tested by putting it in
service as a true RVer would.

In the meantime: Buyer beware!


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Old 07-18-2010, 08:23 AM   #2
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For the rest of us without magnifying glasses!
Quote:
Originally Posted by: 1Cowboy ...

Recently we bought a new RV. It's bigger, has some good
features and cost a lot more. We're using it for extended travel
and for my writing assignments that generate topics for this column.
You'd think when someone spends a boat load of money for
something; a car, house, RV or anything else, they could expect
to take possession of a product that meets the quality and design
hype manufacturers advertise.

Wrong!

How many poorly designed features have you experienced
because some overpaid designer or engineer came up with
something they haven't a clue whether or not it makes sense?
RVs ,fU"f,.marvels of a scaled down house complete wth multiple
bathiooms, AC,kitchens wIth the latest gadgetry for gourmet
cooking and all the other cool things found in a house.

But they also come with the same problems: Leaky plumb-
ing because someone was in a hurry to get off work and screwed
on a connection that cracked and flooded a bathroom (yep, it
happened to us. Just like a modern home we have a neat pantry
with sliding drawers that can store all sorts of spices and other
stuff. But when you make a turn or ride a rough road (what road
isn't rough?), the drawers slam forward popping open the door
creating a mess if someone isn't there to stop everything from
crashing to the floor.

This latter experience happened recently when we were
returning from the maiden trip to test our new RY. My wife had
to sit on the floor against the pantry door so the drawers wouldn't
pop it open as they slid forward when I made a turn!
A great design, huh?

You gotta wonder if the wizards who design these things ever
use them in real life situations. I doubt it . They probably put
them on a "test track" that's smooth as glass, has no bumps and
perfectly engineered turns that meet Indy 500 standards. After
such a test, they crow about their accomplishment.

How about stocking the thing with all the stuff RVers take,
driving them on a highway, use the facilities, hook up water
lines ; holding tank flushing lines and then hope everything
doesn't flood or come flying out of the pantry?

These people are like those who write instructions on how to
assemble something. They haven't a bloody clue how to assemble
(or in the RV instance use) the thing they designed. And to
make matters worse, they can't write instructions that make any
sense because they don't know how to do it!
.
Our RV manufacturer likes to tout its "Amish quality." We all
know Amish folk are terrific craftsmen who take pride in their
work. That's fine as far as it goes. The cabinetry so far seems to
be quality. But that's the only part the Amish influence comes
into play. The Amish didn't botch the plumbing connection that
flooded our bathroom. The Amish didn't design the pantry that
won't stay shut because the drawers slam against it when turning
or on a rough road perhaps this is the reason so many things are
built in foreign countries. They've seen the sloppy work and poor
design and found ways to make something better. (Except for Toyota
who seems to have fallen into the trap of poor design.) On the other
hand, we are also flooded with cheap stuff from Communist
China made in shops where automatons work ungodly hours for
pennies a day.I wonder how long it will be before a foreign made
RV hits the market. Just think of the potential market for something that
has better quality control and has been tested by putting it in service
as a true RVer would.

In the meantime: Buyer beware!
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Old 07-18-2010, 09:37 AM   #3
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Just about every manufacturer has their examples of dumb design. And if they get something right in one model, they are still likely to screw it up in another model or year when they change a floor plan or use a different chassis or whatever. They don't seem to have much memory for what works well. You would think that things like water systems and batteries would have been perfected years ago and every engineer/designer on the staff would know the lessons well, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Winnebago seems to be the most consistent in getting the details right - they develop a workable solution and stick with it most of the time. But they have their lapses too.
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Old 07-18-2010, 10:20 AM   #4
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Gary:

How true!
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Old 08-28-2010, 04:05 PM   #5
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Jayco

Amen....we have had our coach in service now for 3 weeks. They are fixing poorly designed and manufactured plumbing to the gray water tank. We were able to dry camp 2 days on a 40 gallon tank. Problem, it wasn't draining properly to being with. Why, well, it's hard to drain water through pipes going uphill.

This among a list of other things put together in a half ass way.

Am I surprised, no. Our last coach was a Holiday Rambler Diesel pusher. Talk about a lemon. We had problems with the chassis so bad we threatened law suit. I can talk now since they filed bankruptcy shortly after we got our settlement check from them. That coach was a disaster.

While this Jayco hasn't had serious problems most of it is poor workmanship and quality control. Something that has been occuring in RV's for the last several years. Our service center says it's a trend he is seeing across the board with all manufacturers. He doesn't sell RV's but has had a repair service for 25 years and he's worked on just about every brand so he has seen a trend starting in 2007.

I think RV manufacturers are raising prices but not raising their standards. It isn't going to change any time soon either.

Nedra
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Old 08-29-2010, 10:58 AM   #6
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Jayco

Nedra:

Yep, think you nailed it. Surprised they're not made in China. Think we've got things worked out so far. But real test will be our wintering for 6-7 months. Still wonder about black tank (have 2 sets of black and gray) flush/rinse process: Seems to flow pretty slow. But others tell me (even Class A folks) that's the way it works; it doesn't rush out like a hose. Guess I'll find out.

So far the DMax turbo diesel seems to do all that it's said to do. Am pleased with that after having a V-10 gasser towing '98 Wrangler. Although a good coach (had it 7 years), still didn't have the guts to get over some moderate hills. This new one seems to be good at that. We tow a 2010 Ford Edge Sport.

What kind of supplemental brake system do you have if any? Also what speed do you drive while towing? Doing a little unscientic toll to see where I might find my sweet spot. Can send to: sbr.rockingr@gmail.com.

Am former reporter for Roswell Daily Record in NM. LOVE that country! Plan to go there or Ruidoso after leaving South Padre Island April 1.
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Old 08-29-2010, 11:12 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1cowboy View Post
Nedra:

Yep, think you nailed it. Surprised they're not made in China. Think we've got things worked out so far. But real test will be our wintering for 6-7 months. Still wonder about black tank (have 2 sets of black and gray) flush/rinse process: Seems to flow pretty slow. But others tell me (even Class A folks) that's the way it works; it doesn't rush out like a hose. Guess I'll find out.

So far the DMax turbo diesel seems to do all that it's said to do. Am pleased with that after having a V-10 gasser towing '98 Wrangler. Although a good coach (had it 7 years), still didn't have the guts to get over some moderate hills. This new one seems to be good at that. We tow a 2010 Ford Edge Sport.

What kind of supplemental brake system do you have if any? Also what speed do you drive while towing? Doing a little unscientic toll to see where I might find my sweet spot. Can send to: sbr.rockingr@gmail.com.

Am former reporter for Roswell Daily Record in NM. LOVE that country! Plan to go there or Ruidoso after leaving South Padre Island April 1.

You have 2 sets of black and gray? They come with 1 each. We looked at the 36MS but didn't like the storage accessibility so we opted for the FS. I didn't realize you had so much holding capacity. I only hope they did not mess up your plumbing like they did ours. The water drained very slow and that is not normal.

We had 3 class A's before, the last one was a deisel pusher. The tanks should run pretty quick to drain when draining properly. Perhaps not as fast as a hose at high speed but they should flow fast as long as it's draining properly. Ours was not draining and in fact left 10 gallons in there. When they finally pulled it apart turned out Jayco had the plumbing running upstream to drain so there was no way the last 10 gallons was getting out. IT's flowing fast now.

We tow the Ford Flex now and have no problems. We've had a CRV and Suzuki XL7 in the past. Have had a blue ox supplemental brake for years and works well. Definately something you should have.

I love NM. Lived in Albuquerque 20 years ago and swore I'd come back. Retired here 3 years ago.

We lived in Texas for 9 years and went to South Padre several times. Liked it but really hate Texas. Now we go to Arizona for 2 months in winter. I have 2 woodcarving shows and a gourd festival so we just stay there rather than going back and forth.

Nedra
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Old 08-30-2010, 07:41 AM   #8
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Yes there are 2 black and 2 gray tanks. Have full and half bath that's the reason. Flow from all tanks good. Only black tanks flush/rinse seem a bit slow. But am told by some Class A folks that's how there's works. Had an '02 Dutchmen C (gasser) and had after market black tank flush installed. It was basically a a hose extension. It flowed faster. Will see how this does on extended trip and hopefully it's just a slow flow. Best I can tell by squirming into compartments to check plumbing it all looks okay. But what do I know huh?

Texas is okay. No better, no worse than any other. At least they don't seem to tax you to death on everything the way Oklahoma (my home...not birth home) does. Heck if the redneck legislature can fiigure a way to tax us for air they'll do it! That's why we rank right up there with other idiot legislatures...yeah, right, like we're kicking around 49th or less it just about everything.
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Old 08-30-2010, 02:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1cowboy View Post
Yes there are 2 black and 2 gray tanks. Have full and half bath that's the reason. Flow from all tanks good. Only black tanks flush/rinse seem a bit slow. But am told by some Class A folks that's how there's works. Had an '02 Dutchmen C (gasser) and had after market black tank flush installed. It was basically a a hose extension. It flowed faster. Will see how this does on extended trip and hopefully it's just a slow flow. Best I can tell by squirming into compartments to check plumbing it all looks okay. But what do I know huh?


Texas is okay. No better, no worse than any other. At least they don't seem to tax you to death on everything the way Oklahoma (my home...not birth home) does. Heck if the redneck legislature can fiigure a way to tax us for air they'll do it! That's why we rank right up there with other idiot legislatures...yeah, right, like we're kicking around 49th or less it just about everything.
Yes, I understood the rationale behind the 2 sets of tanks. We had a sanicon on our pusher and had one installed on the Seneca nad lost it. You wouldn't be able to see the plumbing for the holding tanks. They had to dismantle the wheel wells to get at it.

We lived full time in Texas 9 years and the only thing I liked about it was the cost of living and taxes. I hated the weather....way too much heat and humidity year round. Too many torrential downpours, hail storms and all around lousy weather. While we go back once a year in October that's about enough for us.

I do have to admit perhaps the redneck legislature is not as bad as the NM mentality in the legislature. Glad Richardson is on his way out but not sure the potentials are any better
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Old 08-31-2010, 07:43 AM   #10
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Yep Texas can get hot & humid like Oklahoma. We got to South Padre to get away from Oklahoma winters which can be bad. Now that we have a good coach (in spite of a few glitches) am thinking about getting away for some of the summer maybe back to NM around Santa Fe, Alamogordo or maybe Colorado but I've never been overly fascinated with Colorado and don't get into skiiing etc so other than that I don't think it's such a big deal. However we do have a place to maintain some in the summer except this one that's pretty well burned up everything with temps well into the triple digits.

Yes you're right about holding tanks and plumbing. That's why I couldn't tell much! Duh! Oh well, we'll see how it turns out. Still an upgrade over the Dutchmen 31' with one small (couch length) slide. But hey, it worked!
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Old 08-31-2010, 01:51 PM   #11
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I think I'd surely opt for Santa Fe or Taos over Alamogordo. They are getting bad weather lately....more so than up north. We like Gunnison area for summer. We have a Western Horizon's membership so stay free. It's nice around there but not much to do. We do tend to go north in summer as it does get warmer in central NM.

Tom (owner of service center) couldn't see a thing until it was all pulled apart. The coach really is nice and a big improvement over many we've had. Now that we have the Koni's and the rear fixed everyone agrees it rides better than most deisel pushers too. We're pretty pleased.

We still have one issue to deal with next trip in. The messed up the slide out so we have gaps in the corners on the floor where you can see the street. It will not be an easy fix so it will take some time. We'll deal with it when we get back.

We're pretty happy with all the upgrades we did: custom slides in the entertainment center (it was installed in lieu of the bunk that was there) and 3 slide out drawers in the center. The cabinet maker also added some side compartments to hold maps and small things. More useable space in stead of wasted space.

Now if they can get Jayco to get a new cook top we can have the oven removed and drawers installed so we have more storage space. We already replaced the microwave with a convection so I am thrilled to have that back.

I'm sure there will be other issues popping up but that's normal with a new coach.

Nedra
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