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Old 07-11-2012, 12:32 AM   #57
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You can slam American quality and tout Japanese quality all you like but here is one thing you may not know. After the war the Japanese lost. It was America who showed Japan how to build quality in to their products so they could rebuild their economy (this was taught in grade school in the 60's). Also that 16 year old Camry of yours was built much better than the Camry's of just a few years ago and just a few years ago Toyota had almost the worst safety (remember the recalls?). The American built cars of 16 years ago were also built much better.
As for RV quality well you get what you pay for. If you buy a lower end or entry level RV (or anything) then the quality will not be as good as the higher end or top level. Basically you get what you pay for.
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I believe you are talking about the Deming model of manufacturing. I think there is even an award for it in Japan. It is true that the model was taught to the Japanese by an American in the 1950's. Problem was that the big 3 basically ignored it until the Japanese Auto industry started to kick the North American's Industry butt. I was in auto retail at a Ford Dealership in the early 1980's and the sad truth was, NA auto's at that time were way behind most Japanese models for fit, finish and quality. It took a drubbing from Japanese Auto's (which were pretty much all Japanese at the time) to give a wake up call to the entire industry. They took the hint and I believe that all NA products are far superior to what they were back then. Add in the fact that many "foreign cars" these days are hardly foreign at all and most products stack up fairly well against each other.
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Old 07-11-2012, 06:42 AM   #58
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I believe you are talking about the Deming model of manufacturing. I think there is even an award for it in Japan. It is true that the model was taught to the Japanese by an American in the 1950's. Problem was that the big 3 basically ignored it until the Japanese Auto industry started to kick the North American's Industry butt. I was in auto retail at a Ford Dealership in the early 1980's and the sad truth was, NA auto's at that time were way behind most Japanese models for fit, finish and quality. It took a drubbing from Japanese Auto's (which were pretty much all Japanese at the time) to give a wake up call to the entire industry. They took the hint and I believe that all NA products are far superior to what they were back then. Add in the fact that many "foreign cars" these days are hardly foreign at all and most products stack up fairly well against each other.
Yes, that is the guy I was talking about and I think (I could be wrong) it was actually him who did the teaching. What actually hurt the big 3's at the time was when the Asian imports started coming to America they were considerably cheaper than the American cars. They were not really better and they definitely were not worse, they were a good car for less money than an American counterpart. I think (and I could be wrong) you could get a first generation Honda for under 3 grand while the American car was at 5 or 6k. In the late 80's or early 90's it was Korean imports and first generation Hyundai's for under 5k while the American and now Japanese (now an established manufacturer) were up around 8-10k. At this time American quality waned (crank it out, get it sold) a bit while the Asian imports did not (still building a reputation but the Hyundai's at that time were junk, but they were cheap and they sold well), They really did not get any better they just did not get worse. It was the late 90's and into the 00's that the Japanese started following the American method of crank it out and get it sold and their quality suffered. This is when the Korean's quality soared and so far they have not hit the crank it out and get it sold quality issue. Now pretty much all cars are of good quality, they are just to expensive to buy. American quality was never really that bad, it did wane for a bit in pursuit of profit but this also happened to the Asian imports. It wasn't quality that kicked our butts it was money. Once everyone had their money the quality came back, of course now you need a 7 year loan to buy a car (but it might actually last that long).
Todd
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Old 07-12-2012, 11:00 AM   #59
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You can slam American quality and tout Japanese quality all you like but here is one thing you may not know. After the war the Japanese lost. It was America who showed Japan how to build quality in to their products so they could rebuild their economy (this was taught in grade school in the 60's). Also that 16 year old Camry of yours was built much better than the Camry's of just a few years ago and just a few years ago Toyota had almost the worst safety (remember the recalls?). The American built cars of 16 years ago were also built much better.
As for RV quality well you get what you pay for. If you buy a lower end or entry level RV (or anything) then the quality will not be as good as the higher end or top level. Basically you get what you pay for.
Todd
While it is true that it was America who showed Japan how to build quality into their products, it is also true that after teaching that lesson, America proceeded to ignore it for the quest of 'let's push it out'.

In 1970, our local fairly high volume GM dealership received their new cars directly into the service department to finish the assembly work on the cars. The parts that the factory didn't have time to install would be in the trunk, or laying on the back seat. Those parts were anything from drive shafts to radiators to whatever couldn't get thrown on the car at the factory. Often the cars were not driveable, and sometimes they wouldn't even run.

A total disregard for quality in the misguided desire to obtain every possible sale. Meanwhile, the Japanese were shipping high quality vehicles to us. They had learned their lesson very well.
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Old 07-12-2012, 11:37 AM   #60
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While it is true that it was America who showed Japan how to build quality into their products, it is also true that after teaching that lesson, America proceeded to ignore it for the quest of 'let's push it out'.

In 1970, our local fairly high volume GM dealership received their new cars directly into the service department to finish the assembly work on the cars. The parts that the factory didn't have time to install would be in the trunk, or laying on the back seat. Those parts were anything from drive shafts to radiators to whatever couldn't get thrown on the car at the factory. Often the cars were not driveable, and sometimes they wouldn't even run.

A total disregard for quality in the misguided desire to obtain every possible sale. Meanwhile, the Japanese were shipping high quality vehicles to us. They had learned their lesson very well.
Yup, that would be the "crank it out get it sold" method that was adopted from the late 70's into the early 00's. I do think that Quality has gotten a lot better. Now the problem is cars cost so much nobody can afford them.
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Old 07-13-2012, 05:27 PM   #61
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All I know is, 5 starters in 5 years for my 1978 Plymouth Volare. After the fifth starter replacement I stuck it in the front yard (rust and all) and sold it in 4 hours for $950. Best $950 I ever made.
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Old 07-13-2012, 08:53 PM   #62
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All I know is, 5 starters in 5 years for my 1978 Plymouth Volare. After the fifth starter replacement I stuck it in the front yard (rust and all) and sold it in 4 hours for $950. Best $950 I ever made.
Thats an OEM problem?
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:10 PM   #63
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Well, the original starter was an OEM problem, the rest were rebuilds, so I'll agree with you that not all were OEM problems. The rust however WAS an OEM problem; that car was totally rusted out in five years.
It was a shame because it was a nice car other than that.
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:18 PM   #64
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What is it that drives many Americans to support foriegn companies trying to put our own companies out of business? Who will this benefit?

Ok I get it. We might as well admit defeat and throw in the towel. Americans can't build anything of quality and the Japanese have to show us how...

We might as well give up all of our manufacturing to the Koreans and the Japanese and take the lowly labor jobs they give us. Plus they laugh in private about how we allowed them to take the largest industries in the world to junk status as we send their profits to Japan.

Nothing more American than baseball, apple pie and Toyota.

And I don't want to hear any baloney about how they are made here. They aren't doing it to benefit Americans. Last time I looked Toyota sent all it's profits to Japan.
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:21 PM   #65
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Well, the original starter was an OEM problem, the rest were rebuilds, so I'll agree with you that not all were OEM problems. The rust however WAS an OEM problem; that car was totally rusted out in five years.
It was a shame because it was a nice car other than that.
Ya.. bad rust on every car, really, back then...
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Old 07-14-2012, 07:26 AM   #66
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All I know is, 5 starters in 5 years for my 1978 Plymouth Volare. After the fifth starter replacement I stuck it in the front yard (rust and all) and sold it in 4 hours for $950. Best $950 I ever made.

Wait! Did that Volare have the coveted and rare 'Fine Corinthian Leather' interior? Corinthians have been extinct since Ricardo Montalban's death. You could have made a fortune on ebay!
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Old 07-14-2012, 07:57 AM   #67
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Ya.. bad rust on every car, really, back then...
Should we not also talk about the paint jobs or lack thereof?

At the end of the day I expect we can talk about cars until we're blue in the face but I thought we were talking about Class C motorhomes?

What motivates and sustains manufacturing problems are bean counters. A manufacturing process only allows "X" amount of hours to finish a product and anything more than that is seen as a loss. Manufacturing at a loss is not what any of the manufacturers can afford to do in this economy. Investing more money in QC is at best a fatal move unless you jack up the price of the product.

On the other hand you can get a hand crafted Newell, Foretravel, Parliament or any other coach that is not a participant in maximum build time and you can get a pretty good motorhome but even under the best manufacturing processes, there are still service departments ....
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Old 07-15-2012, 01:21 AM   #68
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Wait! Did that Volare have the coveted and rare 'Fine Corinthian Leather' interior? Corinthians have been extinct since Ricardo Montalban's death. You could have made a fortune on ebay!

No but my 79 Chrysler Cordoba did. Ahh Ricardo Montaban, even just saying his name is cool. Oh by the way, that was the Chrysler product that went through 3 transmissions because they used an undersized tranny for the size and weight of the car.
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Old 07-15-2012, 08:53 AM   #69
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They build them, and we will come. I truly believe most RV mfgrs. put as little effort as is possible into quality, in order to build quantity. I also think many of us would be priced out of the RV market if the quality was built in.
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:17 PM   #70
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No but my 79 Chrysler Cordoba did. Ahh Ricardo Montaban, even just saying his name is cool. Oh by the way, that was the Chrysler product that went through 3 transmissions because they used an undersized tranny for the size and weight of the car.
Still have a '78 Magnum (90% same).. Flip up headlight covers.. Any ways, pulled the 904 'cause I thought it was bad and spewing oil. Put in a 727 with smallblock bell housing I found for $50.. still cruising along nicely


Oh, the problem turned out to be a rubbed line hidden along the frame...
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