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Old 01-18-2019, 07:52 AM   #85
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I’ll try to get back on the OP’s original topic. I do not see an issue with asking for a picture of a potential employee. If you read through my previous link posted, the law backs it to a point.

“Dress codes, grooming requirements, or other appearance-based policies are legally permitted as long as they are enforced in a non-discriminatory fashion.[19] Such policies must not have a disparate impact on any particular protected class regardless of the employer’s intention.[20] Where appearance standards clearly apply differently to men and women, they have been held to be prima facie discriminatory under Title VII and permissible only if based on a bona fide occupational qualification.[21]”
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Old 01-19-2019, 07:36 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Jake21 View Post
I’ll try to get back on the OP’s original topic. I do not see an issue with asking for a picture of a potential employee. If you read through my previous link posted, the law backs it to a point.

“Dress codes, grooming requirements, or other appearance-based policies are legally permitted as long as they are enforced in a non-discriminatory fashion.[19] Such policies must not have a disparate impact on any particular protected class regardless of the employer’s intention.[20] Where appearance standards clearly apply differently to men and women, they have been held to be prima facie discriminatory under Title VII and permissible only if based on a bona fide occupational qualification.[21]”

Dress codes for either service related, safety or some other allowed reasons are NOT discriminatory as long as they are applied across the board and not limited to one class or designation of an employee.


No photo is required to determine dress code IN ADVANCE. EEOC compliant employers make available information about their dress codes either at time of inerview or in information posted with their advertisements.


Dress codes or uniform requirements are no defense of discrimination.


Photos asked for in advance or with an application is an illegal employment practice.


Just look at the really big companies that handle the public as their business like Holland America/Princess in Alaska, they know the law and follow it. It is the Mom and Pop small to medium companies that do not have professional HR departments that seem to be the ones who are intentionally or unwittingly violating the law.
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Old 01-19-2019, 09:03 AM   #87
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I was under the impression that tattoos all over the face can be a reason for not hiring someone. Is this not correct? On the eeoc website I did not find that it was illegal to ask for a photo as part of the application process. Some other sites say yes, some say no. I think you should consult an attorney. Where did you see that it was illegal to ask for a photo? All I have found is it illegal to discriminate against someone on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, or sex.
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Old 01-19-2019, 12:26 PM   #88
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All I have found is it illegal to discriminate against someone on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, or sex.
What do you think the photos are used for? The face tats and other apperance and grooming have been covered more than once. That is easy to deal with. Put apperance standards up front on the add. Collect resumes/applications (without photos) sort by most qualified, then interview the top three or four and hire. If ya need to see the folks just to feel better then do a vid conf interview. Most workampers are glad to that also. Just as the interveiwer can get a feel for the applicant so can the applicant see and get a feel for how professional the manger is (hint if they asked for a photo up front odds are it is a two bit place with no concept on what is proper and legal and is prolly poorly managed. Think they are the all of sudden gonna care about laws and paying you right or other things? OSHA regs. PPE, paid for all hours worked? Nope. Odds are if they are willing to ignore one set of laws they dont have issues ignoring others. ) I have met and worked for managers in workamping gigs who are only in the position they are because they are just ones who have stuck around the longest not because they have any manaagemnt skills at all.

it is very easy to put clean shaven, no face tats, subdued makeup for the ladies, conservitive dress, short hair for the men, hair up for the ladies in the add or in the interview. It has been covered. Many places have dress codes and grooming standards. Up to a point they are fine.

If you think the photos to go with the application are there for the purpose of sorting out face tats, or having a full set of teeth or clean and neat looking i got some prime swampland in Fl to sell you. Most times it is there to weed out the they dont look like us" or are to old to do the job at the start.

Gonna take a stab in the dark. You happen to be white and not gay and under 70? From where you stand it is prolly fine with you, wont ever hurt you getting a position untill you get older. Wait till you hit 70 and are in great shape and able to do all the job requirments as well as a 50 or 60yer old but your resume gets discarded before you even have a chance to try and convince someone you can do the job based on the photo. Imigine you happen to be brown or black or a same sex couple and see if then you think it is ok when most every position you apply for that has the photo of the couple requested up front almost never call back but when you apply fed positions with nothing more than a great resume and a great skil set for the job and you get call after call wondering when you can start.
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Old 01-20-2019, 06:40 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Jake21 View Post
I was under the impression that tattoos all over the face can be a reason for not hiring someone. Is this not correct? On the eeoc website I did not find that it was illegal to ask for a photo as part of the application process. Some other sites say yes, some say no. I think you should consult an attorney. Where did you see that it was illegal to ask for a photo? All I have found is it illegal to discriminate against someone on the basis of race, color, religion, national origin, or sex.
So can anyone answer Jake's question above with a LEGAL REFERENCE instead of conjecture as to whether it is legal or not to ASK for a photograph? Anyone?
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Old 01-20-2019, 07:36 AM   #90
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So can anyone answer Jake's question above with a LEGAL REFERENCE instead of conjecture as to whether it is legal or not to ASK for a photograph? Anyone?
Well this https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/index.cfm site. the .gov site of the EEOC who in the first line on their site list their mission " The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) is responsible for enforcing federal laws that make it illegal to discriminate against a job applicant or an employee because of the person's race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy, gender identity, and sexual orientation), national origin, age (40 or older), disability or genetic information." and who have the authority " The EEOC has the authority to investigate charges of discrimination against employers who are covered by the law. Our role in an investigation is to fairly and accurately assess the allegations in the charge and then make a finding. If we find that discrimination has occurred, we will try to settle the charge. If we aren't successful, we have the authority to file a lawsuit to protect the rights of individuals and the interests of the public and litigates a small percentage of these cases" to solve the issue. Many other returns on the google are pretty clear that requesting a photo as part of the screening process like "please provide a photo of you and your rig along with sendng a resume to....." is very much a NOGO. I think the fed EEOC makes it clear (see below)

And just to make it clear again...."unless the questions asked can be justified by some business purpose. " asking for a photo as part of the pre screening to check for face tats or mimi style make up or whatever is not a justification. That can be dealt with many other times and ways and BONUS other routes dont run afoul fed laws and possibly exspose a small business to having to debate the issue in court against the EEOC.

Red emphasis mine.

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/practices/


" Pre-Employment Inquiries (General)
As a general rule, the information obtained and requested through the pre-employment process should be limited to those essential for determining if a person is qualified for the job; whereas, information regarding race, sex, national origin, age, and religion are irrelevant in such determinations.

Employers are explicitly prohibited from making pre-offer inquiries about disability.

Although state and federal equal opportunity laws do not clearly forbid employers from making pre-employment inquiries that relate to, or disproportionately screen out members based on race, color, sex, national origin, religion, or age, such inquiries may be used as evidence of an employer's intent to discriminate unless the questions asked can be justified by some business purpose.
Therefore, inquiries about organizations, clubs, societies, and lodges of which an applicant may be a member or any other questions, which may indicate the applicant's race, sex, national origin, disability status, age, religion, color or ancestry if answered, should generally be avoided.

Similarly, employers should not ask for a photograph of an applicant. If needed for identification purposes, a photograph may be obtained after an offer of employment is made and accepted."
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Old 01-20-2019, 07:49 AM   #91
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Is that last line from the fed agency that is tasked with enforcing those laws clear enough for everyone?



I am amazed that it is just not clear. How could anyone who has spent at least a few min in or working with employees of any large company think that asking for a photo upfront is ok. Have none of yall ever worked anywhere that had HR depts and complaince departments that made sure company SOPS followed fed laws and that employees knew and followed all relevent fed laws to keep the company out of trouble?
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Old 01-20-2019, 08:00 AM   #92
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If you are offended,go some where else, If not send a picture already, seems you are going to complain either way !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 01-20-2019, 08:05 AM   #93
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So can anyone answer Jake's question above with a LEGAL REFERENCE instead of conjecture as to whether it is legal or not to ASK for a photograph? Anyone?

Not all law is written down as regulations. Most of our law is made up of what courts decide when hearing cases...or Case Law.


This has been settled in case law many times.


Also some areas like the photo question are not as simple as just black and white.


For instance EEOC does allow the performing arts to ask for photos. But this is a relatively small. specialized field. But in the vast majority of advertised jobs there is not reasonable reason to require a photo.


JBRV is doing such a great job here of standing up for what is right and explaining it that I see no reason to repeat those efforts.


By the way businesses have been stung by Federal Authorities on the photo issue. In one case they sent out resumes with identical qualifications to a company but with different photos. In every case the WHITE MALE was asked to interview. You can guess how that case turned out.


Also keep in mind that resumes are tools of elimination. No one sets 50 resumes on their desk reaches down and picks one out and says Eureka..here is one to interview. In reality resumes are used to eliminate people. This one doesn't meet the education reqmts., this one doesn't have the right experience, etc...They go in the round file...actually now most are kept to prove non discrimination.


The resumes that are left are generally the ones who get interviewed. It is clear if you understand how resumes are used by those hiring, you write and submit a resume that will grab and keep the hiring persons interest. And you can see immediately why people that are intent on choosing one type of American to employ want a photo. It speeds up that elimination process considerably.
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Old 01-20-2019, 08:08 AM   #94
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If you are offended,go some where else, If not send a picture already, seems you are going to complain either way !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If you dont like the laws in this country how bout you go elswhere.

I am very free to complain about things that are not just wrong but against the law.

It is a forum to discusse issues like this that are rv related.

Dont like the forum, dont come read. dont like the laws in the country? get them changed or leave.
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Old 01-20-2019, 09:14 AM   #95
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If you think the photos to go with the application are there for the purpose of sorting out face tats, or having a full set of teeth or clean and neat looking i got some prime swampland in Fl to sell you. Most times it is there to weed out the they dont look like us" or are to old to do the job at the start.


Most times they don’t look like us? That would support the face tat argument. Most times to weed out due to age? How could you that? How could you possibly know what happens “most times”?

Send me the info on the swamp land for sale. I tend to think the better of people. I do not doubt that discrimination does happen. Sometimes you can’t fix stupid.

I have spent almost 2400 nights on the road in the last 6/5 years. I have seen work campers all over the states. Black, Hispanic, Gay, interracial couples, male, female, young, old. I do think I saw a white guy under 70 once too. But he might have been gay. I couldn’t tell from his face.
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Old 01-20-2019, 09:22 AM   #96
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Similarly, employers should not ask for a photograph of an applicant. If needed for identification purposes, a photograph may be obtained after an offer of employment is made and accepted."
Actually, "SHOULD" in the legal sense is not mandatory.

So once again, does ANYONE have a clear legal reference that states that entities advertising work camping positions are in violation of Federal Law if they ask for a photograph?

Anyone?
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Old 01-20-2019, 03:03 PM   #97
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Leave Us Alone!

Great another do gooder ready to ruin a good thing.
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Old 01-20-2019, 03:41 PM   #98
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Oh man, something more to cry about. What is the country coming to? There are probably more "Work Campers" out there than is needed. There are some who would complain about a 'job' no matter what it is. Put on your big person pants, apply some where else. It's a BIG country.
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