Work Camping Employment Discrimination

[Old-Biscuit]

Originally Posted by BTFT

Old Biscuit, your post is proof that truth is often the first casualty.



My statement is not an assumption. It was based on ample proof that you and several others provided in your posts...your words tell the story. And again you choose to conflate the two very distinct definitions of Discrimination for no other purpose but to obfuscate the real problem here.


After I questioned IF you had filed complaints you posted: (Post #10)

As for question of have I reported this. No I have not so far. I did contact one large RV Park in Florida and I have been in contact with the national association of RV Parks and Campgrounds. And I have not yet reported to the federal or state authorities. For one thing I have no real standing as I will not reply to an ad that request a photo. I could file a general complaint but perhaps you've noticed the government is shut down at the moment. I may file a complaint but I think there are better ways to get the message across at this point in time.


So if I am wrong I will readily admit it. Just post an unequivocal statement of your belief in non discrimination in employment as enshrined in US Law.
Post #19 I STATED:
Discrimination in ANY form is wrong......period

BUT one has to properly define 'discrimination'



I questioned OP because posting about a perceived violation W/O taking real steps to mitigate the problem comes across as a rant...which achieves nothing
OP states coming across this discrimination for 4 years....Gov't has only been shut down for past 3 weeks?



To expand:
For 22 yrs I was a Union Steward, Station Representative and Union/Management Contract Negotiator


Your assumption about me and my beliefs is WRONG......so VERY WRONG





Second your assumption that I have been doing nothing about it for four years is amazing since you do not know me or have any inclination of what I do or have not done.
See your statement of lack of filing in your post #10



I dare say that you are not one to accuse me of making assumptions.


But worse than your assumption is your inability to read my post as written. No where do I claim to have seen these ads for four year. I only state that I have been work camping for four years.


Here is what I actually wrote:


I have "Work Camped" for the last 4 years. Some have been typical workcamping jobs some have been not so traditional as in working as a driver-guide for Holland America/Princess Alaska.


But in my research for workcamping jobs I continually run in to employers who ask for a personal photo to accompany an application.


They are two separate statements, two separate paragraphs. And meant to be read that way. Could I have been more precise? Yes surely. Could you have asked a question before making assumptions? Most definitely.



So with all due respect if you are going to accuse and criticize the least you can do is read the post carefully, correctly and get it right. Or ask me to clarify.


But the real question hanging over all of this is what is it that you have such a problem with in me pointing out this issue? I am simply talking about the US Federal Law, supported by numerous Supreme Court decisions which has been long considered settled. This is the law of the land backed up by many many court decisions in every state of the Union and by the Supreme Court. So please tell me...What is the problem with pointing out those that are in violation of it in an industry that most of us deal with regularly?

Nothing wrong with pointing out an issue.........
BUT when questioned about your actions you take offense and begin to rant
Hence the reason this thread is useless in it's entirety



I'm going to relax, have a good cigar and think of spring.

[VanDiemen23]

Every time I've come to IRV2 lately I've been shocked at the level of ignorance. Not only ignorance, but the willful dismissal of facts in the face of their perceived reality. In this thread, the number of folks that don't understand the definition of discrimination - either from Daniel Webster's standpoint or Uncle Sam's.

Bottom line, if you aren't a member of a protected class you can't be discriminated against. I've been a supervisor in the Navy for more than 10 years. The OP has it right. Question his intent all you want, that doesn't make him wrong. The majority of you however, are wrong as far as Uncle Sam is concerned.

An old person can be discriminated against - unless the requirements of the job can't be performed by a person in that physical state. Those requirements would be called out in the solicitation - and would be grounds for dismissal if misrepresented.

Facial tat's don't qualify, nor does other wierdness except as explained in a much earlier post.

And there's a difference in Equal Employment Opportunity vs. Affirmative Action.

Good Lord people, get in the 20th century. Oops - it's the 21st century!

[NLOVNIT]

Folks, need I remind you to discuss the subject & not snip, confront & attack each other?!

Either discuss the subject respectfully or move on.

Lori-

[jbrv]

Originally Posted by VanDiemen23

Every time I've come to IRV2 lately I've been shocked at the level of ignorance. Not only ignorance, but the willful dismissal of facts in the face of their perceived reality. In this thread, the number of folks that don't understand the definition of discrimination - either from Daniel Webster's standpoint or Uncle Sam's.

Bottom line, if you aren't a member of a protected class you can't be discriminated against. I've been a supervisor in the Navy for more than 10 years. The OP has it right. Question his intent all you want, that doesn't make him wrong. The majority of you however, are wrong as far as Uncle Sam is concerned.

An old person can be discriminated against - unless the requirements of the job can't be performed by a person in that physical state. Those requirements would be called out in the solicitation - and would be grounds for dismissal if misrepresented.

Facial tat's don't qualify, nor does other wierdness except as explained in a much earlier post.

And there's a difference in Equal Employment Opportunity vs. Affirmative Action.

Good Lord people, get in the 20th century. Oops - it's the 21st century!

[Hit_the_Rhod]

Originally Posted by EdInArk

I think we have different definitions of the word discrimination. Google the definition, and you get the unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.
That's obviously a bad thing. I think of it as just making a decision about a person based on some perception. For instance, the question was asked above whether it's discrimination to refuse to hire someone with facial tattoos to deal with the public. I'd have said yes, but it'd be with good cause. But according to the definition from Google, it's not. Go figure.

Actually, the above is only the FIRST of TWO meanings referenced. The SECOND meaning referenced is:
recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.

So, the first thing we need to DISCRIMINATE is WHICH definition we are talking about! Although either is correct, the 1st definition, the "politically correct" definition is the one the most people nowadays believe to be the ONLY definition of the word. Once again, it's nice to know exactly what we are talking about!

[Hit_the_Rhod]

In all the applications we've looked over/sent in, I've yet to have one ask for a picture of myself and my wife. We HAVE noticed requirements that our RV must present a good overall appearance and be well maintained, or words to that affect however.

I guess that is a form of discrimination in itself, but I don't believe that RV's are a protected class under federal law. Have others who have not yet weighed in noted requirements on the applications that photos of he applicants be presented in order for the applications to be considered?

[EdInArk]

Originally Posted by Hit_the_Rhod

Actually, the above is only the FIRST of TWO meanings referenced. The SECOND meaning referenced is:
recognition and understanding of the difference between one thing and another.

So, the first thing we need to DISCRIMINATE is WHICH definition we are talking about! Although either is correct, the 1st definition, the "politically correct" definition is the one the most people nowadays believe to be the ONLY definition of the word. Once again, it's nice to know exactly what we are talking about!

I looked up the word discriminating and came up with the following example.

A discriminating person can pick up on the small differences between things and use those differences to make better choices. We should all try to be more discriminating.

OK. So now discrimination is a good thing.

[BTFT]

There are several things that stand out to me about this thread and some of the posts.


1. The argument over the meaning of discrimination is a smoke screen and a thin veil over what at it's core is nothing more than a distraction. The meaning of discrimination in this context is CLEAR and WELL UNDERSTOOD by the vast majority.


2. The effort to take me to task for not reporting the violations has been explained and debunked. You have to have legal standing and generally have to be a party to such discrimination to file a legal complaint. And in today's world other means such as social media may have better and faster results than grinding through the legal system. I am still pondering what I will do and how.



3. The virulent reaction by a few to my post while sad and regrettable is no surprise to me. I also know they are far outnumbered by those that believe in Justice, Law and Equal Opportunity.


4. To those that ask "what difference it makes" or say "just send them a photo!" I say this; Discrimination against one is discrimination against all. Sooner or later you will be the one discriminated against. Therefore you should care about this issue and realize it can be and is being wielded against you even though you may not know it.


Lastly, at the risk of giving someone more attention than they deserve, I was called a "Social Justice Whackjob" not once but twice. And that is fine with me. I will stand for Social Justice any day with pride. What you get when you have no social justice is despotism. There is no social justice in North Korea, Yemen, or Saudi Arabia. If those are your idea of great governments and how to treat people I know a great travel agent you can call...



Thank You to all for your posts.

[FL420]

Originally Posted by BTFT

There are several things that stand out to me about this thread and some of the posts.


1. The argument over the meaning of discrimination is a smoke screen and a thin veil over what at it's core is nothing more than a distraction. The meaning of discrimination in this context is CLEAR and WELL UNDERSTOOD by the vast majority.


2. The effort to take me to task for not reporting the violations has been explained and debunked. You have to have legal standing and generally have to be a party to such discrimination to file a legal complaint. And in today's world other means such as social media may have better and faster results than grinding through the legal system. I am still pondering what I will do and how.



3. The virulent reaction by a few to my post while sad and regrettable is no surprise to me. I also know they are far outnumbered by those that believe in Justice, Law and Equal Opportunity.


4. To those that ask "what difference it makes" or say "just send them a photo!" I say this; Discrimination against one is discrimination against all. Sooner or later you will be the one discriminated against. Therefore you should care about this issue and realize it can be and is being wielded against you even though you may not know it.


Lastly, at the risk of giving someone more attention than they deserve, I was called a "Social Justice Whackjob" not once but twice. And that is fine with me. I will stand for Social Justice any day with pride. What you get when you have no social justice is despotism. There is no social justice in North Korea, Yemen, or Saudi Arabia. If those are your idea of great governments and how to treat people I know a great travel agent you can call...



Thank You to all for your posts.

You are a brave man with a conscience. I applaud you.

[jbrv]

Originally Posted by Hit_the_Rhod

In all the applications we've looked over/sent in, I've yet to have one ask for a picture of myself and my wife. We HAVE noticed requirements that our RV must present a good overall appearance and be well maintained, or words to that affect however.

I guess that is a form of discrimination in itself, but I don't believe that RV's are a protected class under federal law. Have others who have not yet weighed in noted requirements on the applications that photos of he applicants be presented in order for the applications to be considered?

I am amazed you dont see it. I dont recall seeing it on fed volunteer positions but it there very often on workamping positions. Not just photos of the rig but they want photo of the rig and the couple. If you happen to be white and about 60 you may not notice how often it is requested. Try being something other than that and you start to notice it and you also will start to notice you get was less phone calls from places that asked for the photo upfront than you do from places that only have the resume to work with to decide who is most qualified to do the job.


I went to WorkampingJobs.com - Free Job Listings By and For RVers just now to confirm i am not insane.

first add for help wanted.......

A typical work week is 5 days per week, 5-8 hours a day per person. Our work season runs approximately May 1st to mid-Sept. Please send resume, pictures of yourself and rig, along with references to: Christy@spokanecreek.com

third add....We are very team-orientated and promote activities with our staff. If you are interested and would like more info please email resume with photos of you and your rig to: redwoodsriverresort@gmail.com $$$

fith add....FHU site included, all hours paid at $12/hr. To apply please email your resume, three references, and photos of yourself and RV. For more information email silvercoverv@highwaywestvacations.com
http://www.silvercovervresort.com

7th or 8th add. i lost count...." If interested, contact Robert at 803-640-0600 also please send a short resume and pictures of yourself,RV and fur babies to robertpiersonjr@yahoo.com
Pineacres Campground



Real rough numbers and just a sample from one site. say 2/3 to half are asking for a photo of the couple and the rig.

[Hit_the_Rhod]

Originally Posted by jbrv

I am amazed you dont see it. I dont recall seeing it on fed volunteer positions but it there very often on workamping positions. Not just photos of the rig but they want photo of the rig and the couple. If you happen to be white and about 60 you may not notice how often it is requested. Try being something other than that and you start to notice it and you also will start to notice you get was less phone calls from places that asked for the photo upfront than you do from places that only have the resume to work with to decide who is most qualified to do the job.


I went to WorkampingJobs.com - Free Job Listings By and For RVers just now to confirm i am not insane.

first add for help wanted.......

A typical work week is 5 days per week, 5-8 hours a day per person. Our work season runs approximately May 1st to mid-Sept. Please send resume, pictures of yourself and rig, along with references to: Christy@spokanecreek.com

third add....We are very team-orientated and promote activities with our staff. If you are interested and would like more info please email resume with photos of you and your rig to: redwoodsriverresort@gmail.com $$$

fith add....FHU site included, all hours paid at $12/hr. To apply please email your resume, three references, and photos of yourself and RV. For more information email silvercoverv@highwaywestvacations.com
http://www.silvercovervresort.com

7th or 8th add. i lost count...." If interested, contact Robert at 803-640-0600 also please send a short resume and pictures of yourself,RV and fur babies to robertpiersonjr@yahoo.com
Pineacres Campground



Real rough numbers and just a sample from one site. say 2/3 to half are asking for a photo of the couple and the rig.

Interesting, apparently we're not applying for work camping on the same site! I do know that we have looked into mostly National parks, and Military Famcamps, so perhaps that explains the different results you are apparently finding.

I stand behind my statement that none of the ones we've personally looked into or applied for asked for photo's, but not that that means that others haven't run into it! Oh, and by the way, we're one of those rare couples that actually read what we sign, so if it were in the applications that we signed, we would have known it!
That said, if it is a requirement in an application you are considering, and you don't want to send in a photo, then don't. If it is a requirement, and you feel that it is a violation of your civil rights, or a law, report it, and then follow up on it. If you don't IMHO you really aren't too concerned about it after all.

Have a great day and get out there and USE YOUR RV!

[consolenut]

okay i will discriminate. im under 50. i have internet phones tablet etc. its clear OP must be a millnenial who wants social justice. Furthermore he is prob one of the many polled millenials who prefer socialism over capitialism. they seem to think working for what you want isnt fair.

just an opinion

[jbrv]

Originally Posted by Hit_the_Rhod

Interesting, apparently we're not applying for work camping on the same site! I do know that we have looked into mostly National parks, and Military Famcamps, so perhaps that explains the different results you are apparently finding.

I stand behind my statement that none of the ones we've personally looked into or applied for asked for photo's, but not that that means that others haven't run into it! Oh, and by the way, we're one of those rare couples that actually read what we sign, so if it were in the applications that we signed, we would have known it!
That said, if it is a requirement in an application you are considering, and you don't want to send in a photo, then don't. If it is a requirement, and you feel that it is a violation of your civil rights, or a law, report it, and then follow up on it. If you don't IMHO you really aren't too concerned about it after all.

Have a great day and get out there and USE YOUR RV!

You dont see itt because you are apling to mostly fed places that (SHOCKER!) follow fed laws. I mentioned i dont recall seeing that requirement on any of the fed volunteer adds we browse and often apply to.

What do you suggest i report? Any place that has that requirement in an add?

because i dont devote my life to reporting and filling complaints and suing does not mean i am not concerned. I cant prove i have been damaged or passed over but i have common sense. As i said before i am an avg looking 50 year old white guy. At first meet i am pegged as a Good ol' boy by avg white folks. I get to hear the what those folks say when they think they are with like minded folks. As soon as they see my wife they shelf that stuff and try to pretend they are not what they were 10 min prior. It is kind of funnysometimes to watch them squirm and try to backtrack.


how does that poem go......

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.


If it makes you feel good to pretend it is not out there and happening then fine. Good for you. It is. No matter how much folks try to make it ok or ignore it it is wrong and it is out there.

[BTFT]

Originally Posted by consolenut

okay i will discriminate. im under 50. i have internet phones tablet etc. its clear OP must be a millnenial who wants social justice. Furthermore he is prob one of the many polled millenials who prefer socialism over capitialism. they seem to think working for what you want isnt fair.

just an opinion

You know the old saying about ASSumptions...


The OP (Me) happens to be a 66 year old white male. Vietnam Vet and former Peace Corps volunteer in West Africa (Sierra Leone to be precise)


And Social Justice and Equal Employment under the law is neither socialist or capitalist...it's just Fairness.