Future of Boondocking?

[gpounder]

When the world runs out of oil in a few hundred years you will be boonbocking where it sits.

[Searching_Ut]

In 7 years I doubt it will be much different than it is now, albiet with possibly fewer places open to boondocking, and more people in the areas you can do it in.


In my early years, my family lived out of a travel trailer. I don't recall the brand as I was a kid then, but it was metallic and looked like an airstream with a big blue band around it. It had pretty much the same conviniences of trailers today in most ways, albeit no generator, and no air conditioner. Back then, trailers were used much more for boondocking/dry camping, whereas now the norm seems to trend more to RV parks.


Batteries have been improving, but it's been slow, and there is still a whole lot of room for improvement. It's hard to guess as technology predictions tend to really miss on timelines. If you look at old popular science and similar magazines you'll see articles in the 1800's predicting solar would be the primary source of electrical production by the start of the 1900's. When I went to training on the new highly volatile lithium chemistry batteries in the mid 1980's the engineers were predicting they would be the primary battery in use within 10 years.



I think the biggest thing impacting Boondocking is going to be population density, and legalities. More and more in the built up areas, bad actors are bringing about laws, and restrictions regarding camping within the urban areas, and these restrictions are expanding out into areas around the cities more and more. Due to having explored the western deserts with my dad a great deal in my younger years, I've been invited several times to land use hearings/meetings to give background primarily on roads that were in use decades ago. In these meetings there has always seemed to be groups supporting both sides of the vehicle use debates that have been on going, but I haven't seen any groups supporting RV campers in regards to the more recent opposition to RV'ers camping in anything but designated campgrounds argument that is becoming quite mainstream in these meetings now.


Solar is going to continue to big a big deal for those who boondock a great deal, but I doubt will go mainstream due to the limitations of power production vers inefficient wasteful energy demands of RV designs. Large batteries will also probably not become mainstream, with standard being small systems that get folks from one RV park to the next. As far as electric drivetrains, I would think for RV use it will be a niche product at best for at least 20 more years. Technology just doesn't seem to transition that fast.


Now, I need to get busy making up some brackets to add two additional solar panels to my roof.

[radar]

Love the OP’s open minded approach to future possibilities. Kinda cool. Yagottafigur. 20 years ago nobody would have thought that bthere would be a1000 cars a day hitting North American roads without gas tanks. . EV technology has come a long way in 10 years. I’m sure in 10 years there will be at least some development in EVRV’s. It sure would improve the driving experience.

[Isaac-1]

To take your points one at a time:

Electric RV's not in 7 or even 10 years, at least not with the range one would expect in an RV, add to that the already over stressed power grid at many RV campgrounds, .... maybe 20 years maybe not.


What I do expect to see in 7 years are more RV's with Lithium (LiFePO4 or similar) deep cycle battery banks, larger whole house inverters that can provide normal power for 12+ hours off grid (ie run the generator at max output, charge up, then run on battery inverter until it is time to charge again, combined with some solar)





Solar, there have been many promises of increased efficiency solar, but the truth is it has not significantly changed in decades, maybe it is over due, call this a coin toss, right now the practical upper limit for an RV is around 1,000 watts worth of fixed mount panels, totaling around 6,000 watt hours per day of output.


Water filters, not likely to happen, reverse osmosis filters produce a large amount of waste water for every gallon of purified water they produce. There have been some advancements in this, but you are still looking at something like 2-3 gallons of waste water for every gallon of purified water produced.


Toilets, I don't see it happening, people have tried all sorts of things like this before, composting toilets, etc. they all have major down sides. Black tanks need a certain liquid to solid ratio to not clog us, incinerating toilets stink, ...


Gray water evaporation, etc. The problem is often not dumping, but fresh water refill. There is already a dump site infrastructure out there, and dump sites without fresh water fills are common.


Autonomous driving, not in 7 years, too many legal issues to be worked out even if the tech was here. Though with luck we will see more driver assist systems showing up in RV's the type we already see in upper end cars, lane centering, collision avoidance, adaptive cruise control, etc.

[CBDunkerson]

Originally Posted by gpounder

When the world runs out of oil in a few hundred years you will be boonbocking where it sits.

If we kept oil as the primary transportation fuel that'd be a few decades away... not centuries.

Originally Posted by Searching_Ut

In 7 years I doubt it will be much different than it is now

That seems to be the general consensus, but I'm optimistic on most of the advances I listed being available in some form.

For example, the proliferation of electric vehicles is all but inevitable given that none of the major auto manufacturers are even working on a 'next generation' internal combustion engine any more. Thus, the only real question is how far the more niche RV market will have progressed. Worst case scenario, by then it should be possible to buy a used Tesla semi and convert it.

Basically, all of those technologies exist currently, but most are not available for purchase (e.g. highway self driving), have extremely high costs (e.g. 34% thin film solar), or are only '95% viable' (e.g. mobile incinerating toilet) right now.

Originally Posted by Searching_Ut

albiet with possibly fewer places open to boondocking, and more people in the areas you can do it in.

Now that is depressing. I have absolutely no interest in driving from RV park to RV park. Rather, I'd like to be able to visit friends and family as the mood strikes me and have my home be parked within a ~15 minute bike ride of theirs. The rest of the time I'd hoped to be able to explore the national parks and other public lands... stopping pretty much when and where I wanted.

I'm expecting vehicles capable of autonomous driving on highways to kick off a shift from many retirees living in nursing homes and retirement communities to more having their own mobile homes that drive them around to visit kids, grandkids, and friends. Hopefully, that will come to pass and help to reverse any 'anti RV parking' trends that have been developing.

[Phil G.]

The original post is almost describing a truly "self contained for long periods" RV?


If this was to become achievable in an RV, why wouldn't it be achievable in many, many more personal residences being built and modified so as to be off the grid? In fact it seems like off the grid residences would come long before "self contained for long periods" RVs.

[CBDunkerson]

Originally Posted by Phil G.

The original post is almost describing a truly "self contained for long periods" RV?

If this was to become achievable in an RV, why wouldn't it be achievable in many, many more personal residences being built and modified so as to be off the grid? In fact it seems like off the grid residences would come long before "self contained for long periods" RVs.

Don't we already have self sufficient off-grid residences?

...and yes, that is exactly what I am hoping for. RVs that seldom or never require 'hookups' to external electrical, water, and/or sewage lines. You only need to visit civilization to pick up food and get rid of garbage.

[jcussen]

Originally Posted by CBDunkerson

Don't we already have self sufficient off-grid residences?

...and yes, that is exactly what I am hoping for. RVs that seldom or never require 'hookups' to external electrical, water, and/or sewage lines. You only need to visit civilization to pick up food and get rid of garbage.

Yes, plenty of off grid homes around the world. But they are in areas where water is available and the provision for some type of sewage disposable. Not viable on most BLM land, and as mentioned in previous posts, living on solar is very possible, but for moving your rig around not so much.
https://www.hawaiibusiness.com/off-the-grid-2/

[theoldwizard]

Originally Posted by TonyMac

...first and foremost, it makes the whole rig smell like somebody just pooped in a bucket, sooo...

If that is true, then the seat lid is not sealing and/or the the dedicated fan is not drawing sufficient air.

I did hear of one case on an RV where a large fan inside the main living air was so strong it over powered the composting toilet fan. Simple solution was to jeep the bathroom door closed at all times.

[jcussen]

Originally Posted by theoldwizard

If that is true, then the seat lid is not sealing and/or the the dedicated fan is not drawing sufficient air.

I did hear of one case on an RV where a large fan inside the main living air was so strong it over powered the composting toilet fan. Simple solution was to jeep the bathroom door closed at all times.

Cure is setting fans to discharge into living spaces. This works for me when boondocking , just open a window next to where you are sleeping and air flow will go out that window and keep you cool, and hopefully keep the stink inside the toilet.

[cwk]

Originally Posted by theoldwizard

Personally, I would like to see improvements in build quality and materials. How about a 5 year "no leak" guarantee ? I have a 22 year old truck that does not leak !

X2!!!

Originally Posted by theoldwizard

Second, I think propane is "on the way out" ! With good solar, a decent size battery bank, use of modern, highly efficient DC compressors in A/C and refrigerators, inductive cook tops, microwave ovens and convection ovens (all available today) about the only "difficult" task to overcome is hot water. If you are boondocking in a warm climate, solar showers are a viable option.

How would you address heating an RV? I know heat pumps heat and cool. But, what happens when the outside temps get to freezing and below? Say 10-15F or so? Would electric radiant floor heating working off batteries from solar power be enough to replace propane? Or, some other type of heating?

[jcussen]

Originally Posted by cwk

X2!!!


How would you address heating an RV? I know heat pumps heat and cool. But, what happens when the outside temps get to freezing and below? Say 10-15F or so? Would electric radiant floor heating working off batteries from solar power be enough to replace propane? Or, some other type of heating?

Good point. Any type of radiant heat working off resistance, is very inefficient, a 15 amp radiant heater whether it is the floor or from a box heater will produce 5100 btu's. Heat pumps at 15 amps are better at 12000+ btu's. So if you want 25 to 50 thousand btu's, and you don't have massive solar and a real big battery bank, you need either propane devices or a diesel boiler type of heater. Or maybe a wood fired fireplace?

[RVPioneer]

What’s the cost of the 1000kwh battery?

I’d like to see a coach with a 10K array. I really would.

An all electric coach with 2-3 A/C’s, 4 TV’s, induction cook top, microwave, heat, hot water, residential refrigerator, etc is a disaster for boondocking.

Will this EV coach have an onboard generator?

What’s the plan for the solids in the grey tank after the water has evaporated?
It’s grey water. Just dump it on the garden.

There are plenty of products available to make boondocking easier. Don’t expect any to originate from the coach manufacturers.

[theoldwizard]

Originally Posted by cwk

How would you address heating an RV? I know heat pumps heat and cool. But, what happens when the outside temps get to freezing and below? Say 10-15F or so?

First, I don't think many RVers would boondock in 10-15F weather ! Good quality residential heat pumps CAN produce good heat even down below 0F, even WITHOUT resistabce heat strips, but they take a lot of power, probably more than what a reasonable size battery bank can store. Also probably more than even a 2000W solar system can produce in 8 hours (cold temps also mean less sun). Some people have installed pellet wood stove, but they have to be so small that you have to feed them every 2-4 hours.

Boondocking in cold weather would be the exception to my rule !