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Old 08-11-2019, 11:31 PM   #71
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My setup is: 18ea 120w semi-flexible panels in groups of 6 on 3ea 50 amp MPPT charge controllers. 1 controller for house batteries 4ea 220 Amp-hr 6 volt series paralell. 2ea 300 Amp Hr 12V LiFePO4 aux batteries each tied to 1 controller and 6 panels. They drive a 3KW true Sine inverter through a Marine Battery switch.( off - 1 - 2 - Both) Normally in parallel. That inverter charges my 2014 Prius plug in (which takes about 4.4 Kw - hr)
Need full Sine Inverter for Prius. At some point I may figure out how to run 1 Air conditioner off the 3Kw inverter, but right now it is too much demand.
I used semi flexible panels and LiFePO4 batteries to cut weight. The drawback with the panels is they oxidize quickly and lose power. The batteries were pretty spendy.
It does cut my power costs when I'm long terming and get metered. It was supposed to be an experiment. When new panels are available at a reasonable price I will replace the 18 I have. They cost about 2K. (about .95$ per watt) I actually always charge the car if I can even at house.
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Old 08-12-2019, 12:15 AM   #72
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I agree, but that just seemed like another inconvenient truth.
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Old 08-12-2019, 12:19 AM   #73
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They would cost 10 times that much, and that's only 12 KW-hr.
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Old 08-12-2019, 07:57 AM   #74
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You sound like George Jetson. Will your 40’ RV magically fold up to a breifcase size box and be able to store in your closet, too? I only think ahead to wonder if my coach will start when I’m ready to leave. 😃
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:04 AM   #75
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Interior Secretary David Bernhard has determined to move the headquarters of Department of the Interior to Grand Junction, Colorado and gives current Washington DC employees 30 days to make the move. There is no building to move into.

Acting Director William Perry Pendley has argued that the federal government should not own most public lands.

The Department of the Interior is in charge of BLM and National Parks.

Boondocking could be in serious trouble.
If the federal government doesn't own public lands, then they are no longer public. I'd rather the federal government own them than individual states.

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Old 08-12-2019, 09:06 AM   #76
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Here are my predictions for The Future Of Boondocking.
Based on current trends, these are as realistic as I can make them:

a)
Petroleum-based fuels are unavailable.
If some fuels are available, they are rationed.
These include petroleum-based products such as lubricants and tires.

b)
As more businesses shut and jobs become scarcer, bankers foreclose on massive numbers of homes.
Every used RecreationVehicle is occupied by full-time live-aboards... some legit, some taken and held by force.


c)
Every RecreationVehicle is used until it disintegrates, then it is abandoned.
The owner of the property is stuck with the clean-up.
On a foreclosed property, squatters accumulate junk until they cannot stand the mess, then move to another squat.

d)
In fUSA, the southern border is non-existent.
Millions of border-crossers are encouraged by the millions proceeding them.

e)
Travel is risky.
Stopping is riskier.

f)
Common-sense gun laws prevent honest folk from acquiring and practicing with self-defense weapons in defense of their property and loved ones.
Common-sense laws are ignored by everybody else.

g)
Telephone calls for assistance to Law Enforcement Officials are prioritized based on ReturnOnInvestment.
For example, a tramp-camp of dope-fiends and illegals is a very low priority; they have nothing to seize for auction.

h)
Every city is Detroit times Baltimore times Frisco. Or anyplace in California.
Every hospital is a war-zone.

i)
The 99% sees you as the 1%.
In other words, every place is BEL aka BehindEnemyLines.

j)
Traffic is routed through bottle-necks.
Searches of your vehicle always always always turn-up contraband.

K)
WOMEN RETURN TO CHATTEL STATUS.
Frequent swaps between owners blur lineage of off-spring.

This is the future of boondocking.
You watched MAD MAX last night, didn't you?

Rob
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:20 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Dave the mnw View Post
My setup is: 18ea 120w semi-flexible panels in groups of 6 on 3ea 50 amp MPPT charge controllers. 1 controller for house batteries 4ea 220 Amp-hr 6 volt series paralell. 2ea 300 Amp Hr 12V LiFePO4 aux batteries each tied to 1 controller and 6 panels. They drive a 3KW true Sine inverter through a Marine Battery switch.( off - 1 - 2 - Both) Normally in parallel. That inverter charges my 2014 Prius plug in (which takes about 4.4 Kw - hr)
Need full Sine Inverter for Prius. At some point I may figure out how to run 1 Air conditioner off the 3Kw inverter, but right now it is too much demand.
I used semi flexible panels and LiFePO4 batteries to cut weight. The drawback with the panels is they oxidize quickly and lose
power. The batteries were pretty spendy.
It does cut my power costs when I'm long terming and get metered. It was supposed to be an experiment. When new panels are available at a reasonable price I will replace the 18 I have. They cost about 2K. (about .95$ per watt) I actually always charge the car if I can even at house.
I also started with flexible panels, they were good for about a year.
I have a 3 k psw Victron and it will run one roof ac with the help of this:https://www.microair.net/collections...nt=30176048267
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Old 08-12-2019, 12:31 PM   #78
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All of the other power sources are still way too expensive and inefficient.
Not sure what you mean, but petroleum is one of the most expensive ways of generating power. Where it excelled was in portability and energy density. Electrons are even more portable, and modern batteries are achieving sufficient energy density (and low cost) that none of the major automakers are even working on a 'next generation' of petroleum based vehicles any more.

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It still amazes me that people who buy electric cars and think they are saving the planet. They don’t realize where the power that comes out of the wall actually come from.
If 100% of our electricity were generated by coal plants then electric cars would cause roughly equal carbon pollution as internal combustion vehicles do currently. Since coal is on the way out, and all other sources emit less carbon... electric vehicles really are much better for the environment (and human health) than ICE vehicles. With fossil fuel power shrinking while renewable power grows the overall balance continues to improve... and that's not even considering people with electric vehicles charged by solar on their house or the vehicle itself.
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Old 08-12-2019, 01:38 PM   #79
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Not sure what you mean, but petroleum is one of the most expensive ways of generating power. Where it excelled was in portability and energy density. Electrons are even more portable, and modern batteries are achieving sufficient energy density (and low cost) that none of the major automakers are even working on a 'next generation' of petroleum based vehicles any more.

If 100% of our electricity were generated by coal plants then electric cars would cause roughly equal carbon pollution as internal combustion vehicles do currently. Since coal is on the way out, and all other sources emit less carbon... electric vehicles really are much better for the environment (and human health) than ICE vehicles. With fossil fuel power shrinking while renewable power grows the overall balance continues to improve... and that's not even considering people with electric vehicles charged by solar on their house or the vehicle itself.
A. I wonder when a vehicle battery the size of a fuel container/tank will equal the same amount of energy of that container/tank full of gasoline ... or more challenging yet ... contain the energy of that container/tank full of diesel?

B. Every time year after year (for decades) that folks have filled a container with gasoline or diesel, they have started out with pretty much the same amount of energy in that container. What is the rate that modern (lithium based, etc.) batteries degrade over time so as to not start out (after a full charge) with the same amount of energy as when the battery bank was new?

C. Also related to B. above, if one like's their battery powered vehicle and wants to keep it for say, 15 years ... then will the original battery bank still have been able to be in it and still be storing pretty much the same amount of energy when fully charged? If not, what will replacement of the battery bank cost?

D. How will disposal/recycle(?) of millions of vehicle battery banks per year - once the whole world is full of EVs - be handled ...sustainably?

Probably the best solution to moving people around as the world's population goes up and up - all aspects being considered - is mass transportation instead of personal transportation.
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Old 08-12-2019, 02:20 PM   #80
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Berkey water filter system is awesome. You can use it with
tap, lake or streams!
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Old 08-12-2019, 04:23 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Phil G. View Post
A. I wonder when a vehicle battery the size of a fuel container/tank will equal the same amount of energy of that container/tank full of gasoline ... or more challenging yet ... contain the energy of that container/tank full of diesel?

B. Every time year after year (for decades) that folks have filled a container with gasoline or diesel, they have started out with pretty much the same amount of energy in that container. What is the rate that modern (lithium based, etc.) batteries degrade over time so as to not start out (after a full charge) with the same amount of energy as when the battery bank was new?

C. Also related to B. above, if one like's their battery powered vehicle and wants to keep it for say, 15 years ... then will the original battery bank still have been able to be in it and still be storing pretty much the same amount of energy when fully charged? If not, what will replacement of the battery bank cost?

D. How will disposal/recycle(?) of millions of vehicle battery banks per year - once the whole world is full of EVs - be handled ...sustainably?

Probably the best solution to moving people around as the world's population goes up and up - all aspects being considered - is mass transportation instead of personal transportation.
Here you go with facts again

Great points and no solutions currently

For some reason many people think EV are the answer to life's problems however currently they bring more challenges than solutions

Hopefully that will change
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Old 08-13-2019, 05:55 AM   #82
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A. I wonder when a vehicle battery the size of a fuel container/tank will equal the same amount of energy of that container/tank full of gasoline ... or more challenging yet ... contain the energy of that container/tank full of diesel?
Likely never... but that misses half the story.

Electric motors are more efficient than internal combustion engines... meaning that they can do the same amount of work with less energy. An electric drive train also weighs less. Indeed, one of the more recent advances in electric vehicles is to remove the axles and put separate electric motors on left and right wheels. This reduces the overall weight while increasing vehicle control and maneuverability.

So, while batteries will never match gasoline/diesel in energy per volume or energy per mass, smaller electric vehicles already do match petroleum vehicles in these factors. That's currently true up to about the 'micro compact' vehicle range. It will probably be another ten years before it is true for 'full size' vehicles and RVs may never get there.

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Originally Posted by Phil G. View Post
B. Every time year after year (for decades) that folks have filled a container with gasoline or diesel, they have started out with pretty much the same amount of energy in that container. What is the rate that modern (lithium based, etc.) batteries degrade over time so as to not start out (after a full charge) with the same amount of energy as when the battery bank was new?
Roughly 5% per 150,000 miles for the latest / best managed battery systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil G. View Post
C. Also related to B. above, if one like's their battery powered vehicle and wants to keep it for say, 15 years ... then will the original battery bank still have been able to be in it and still be storing pretty much the same amount of energy when fully charged? If not, what will replacement of the battery bank cost?
Average driving in the US is about 12,000 miles per year. After 15 years that'd be 180,000 miles... your battery should still retain ~94% of the charge it did when new.

EV batteries currently cost about $145 per kWh with most battery packs being in the 40 to 80 kWh range. Note that you can potentially replace individual battery cells if some are more damaged / degraded than others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil G. View Post
D. How will disposal/recycle(?) of millions of vehicle battery banks per year - once the whole world is full of EVs - be handled ...sustainably?
There is already a large market re-using 'drained' (generally classified as holding below 70% of original charge) EV batteries for large scale grid storage. Modern EV batteries should take many decades to reach the point where they are can no longer store electricity cost effectively.

After that... they could potentially be recycled to produce new batteries, but that is too far in the future to plausibly guess how various other economic factors would play out (e.g. have batteries switched over to cheaper new materials?, how efficient is the recycling process?, are there other uses for the battery materials?, etc).

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Probably the best solution to moving people around as the world's population goes up and up - all aspects being considered - is mass transportation instead of personal transportation.
Sure. Especially electrified mass transportation. :]
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Old 08-13-2019, 09:03 AM   #83
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Likely never... but that misses half the story.

Electric motors are more efficient than internal combustion engines... meaning that they can do the same amount of work with less energy. An electric drive train also weighs less. Indeed, one of the more recent advances in electric vehicles is to remove the axles and put separate electric motors on left and right wheels. This reduces the overall weight while increasing vehicle control and maneuverability.

So, while batteries will never match gasoline/diesel in energy per volume or energy per mass, smaller electric vehicles already do match petroleum vehicles in these factors. That's currently true up to about the 'micro compact' vehicle range. It will probably be another ten years before it is true for 'full size' vehicles and RVs may never get there.

Roughly 5% per 150,000 miles for the latest / best managed battery systems.

Average driving in the US is about 12,000 miles per year. After 15 years that'd be 180,000 miles... your battery should still retain ~94% of the charge it did when new.

EV batteries currently cost about $145 per kWh with most battery packs being in the 40 to 80 kWh range. Note that you can potentially replace individual battery cells if some are more damaged / degraded than others.

There is already a large market re-using 'drained' (generally classified as holding below 70% of original charge) EV batteries for large scale grid storage. Modern EV batteries should take many decades to reach the point where they are can no longer store electricity cost effectively.

After that... they could potentially be recycled to produce new batteries, but that is too far in the future to plausibly guess how various other economic factors would play out (e.g. have batteries switched over to cheaper new materials?, how efficient is the recycling process?, are there other uses for the battery materials?, etc).

Sure. Especially electrified mass transportation. :]
Thanks for your nice answers. Let's hope they're correct ... because it looks like we're boarding a we-have-no-other-choice train.
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Old 08-13-2019, 09:28 AM   #84
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So we have batteries that will supposedly hold 94% of their charge after 15 years and a large supply of “drained” batteries that hold less than 70% of their original capacity. Interesting.

Where can I find these 1Kwh lithium batteries for $145? I’d love to load my coach up with those.

Boondocking is the topic, correct?

Solving the conundrum of electricity is quite simple. Can we talk about an endless water supply now?
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