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Old 08-13-2019, 09:43 AM   #85
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So we have batteries that will supposedly hold 94% of their charge after 15 years and a large supply of “drained” batteries that hold less than 70% of their original capacity. Interesting.

Where can I find these 1Kwh lithium batteries for $145? I’d love to load my coach up with those.

Boondocking is the topic, correct?

Solving the conundrum of electricity is quite simple. Can we talk about an endless water supply now?
Exactly, when you are camped out on BLM land in April when monthly rainfall is 0.1 inches and humidity is less than 10%, thinking you will be looking for that electric water truck after a while. R.O.'s evaporators, filters etc won't help here.
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Old 08-13-2019, 09:56 AM   #86
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Where can I find these 1Kwh lithium batteries for $145? I’d love to load my coach up with those.
The individual cell manufacturing cost (not your price for a finished pack) may be down to $145 at this point. You will not pay $145 per kwh for a finished pack for a very long time.

Everyone is so extreme on their views, either we will have electric RV's tomorrow or they are worse than fossil fuels and we should give up on them.

Probably same arguments about horses vs combustion engines when became viable in a vehicle.

Batteries are heavier and more expensive than fuel tanks but the motors and transmission are lighter and cheaper. Batteries are getting steadily cheaper and more energy dense, but it is a slow process.

Electricity must come from somewhere probably fossil fuels for the most part initially, but now your vehicle isn't tied to a specific fuel and all the emission equipment you guys complain about is now at the power plant instead and is much more effective, this is called "the long tailpipe". Now you can mix solar nuclear, wind and fossil fuels and the cars don't have to change.

Lithium batteries are highly recyclable.

Electrification is pretty much a given at this point its just a matter of when
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Old 08-13-2019, 11:30 AM   #87
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Where can I find these 1Kwh lithium batteries for $145? I’d love to load my coach up with those.
Not sure of the price per Kwh, but there are used Tesla (24V) battery packs available. These are supposedly from vehicles that were involved in motor vehicle accidents. The batteries were not damaged in the accidents.

https://www.mortonsonthemove.com/ (they also have a youtube channel) talks about how he incorporated a Tesla battery into his RV along with solar, etc. He has about 3 or 4 videos on his solar and battery project, including a followup on how it worked for him. I found it interesting.


Now, about that endless fresh water supply...
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Old 08-13-2019, 12:21 PM   #88
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So we have batteries that will supposedly hold 94% of their charge after 15 years and a large supply of “drained” batteries that hold less than 70% of their original capacity. Interesting.
That'd be the difference between current state of the art (lithium ion) vs early 'low tech' (e.g. lead acid) batteries. Also don't forget that EVs have been around in some form off and on for a long time... the early Prius, the EV1, heck the first electric car was created ~1832.

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Solving the conundrum of electricity is quite simple. Can we talk about an endless water supply now?
Filtering rain water falling on the RV can cover your water supply in many locations, but in desert areas you're going to need something like a 'water maker' filter and a lake or stream. I doubt the air collection systems could gather enough water to fully supply one person in desert areas, let alone a group.

Of course, if you can eliminate or minimize the black and grey water tanks through various methods discussed previously then it shouldn't be difficult to devote that saved space to holding tanks large enough to last you two weeks with no water coming in.
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:01 PM   #89
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Daimler has started shipping electric semis

They've got a 550 kWh battery for ~250 miles of range... so roughly half what Tesla has been promising, but ahead in the fact that they are actually in the hands of customers... though they won't be available for general purchase until 2021.

In any case, that battery should be plenty for boondocking, and with the lower weight of an RV a converted Daimler semi should have decent range. Basically, if you can make a viable electric semi truck (and many companies are doing so) then it is certainly possible to make a viable electric RV.
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:17 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by RVPioneer View Post
So we have batteries that will supposedly hold 94% of their charge after 15 years and a large supply of “drained” batteries that hold less than 70% of their original capacity. Interesting.

Where can I find these 1Kwh lithium batteries for $145? I’d love to load my coach up with those.

Boondocking is the topic, correct?

Solving the conundrum of electricity is quite simple. Can we talk about an endless water supply now?

Here ya go ... maybe an endless clean water supply for RV boondocking is just about here:

https://www.zeromasswater.com/ap/?ut...SAAEgLlNfD_BwE
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:26 PM   #91
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I have to tell you folks My idea of boondocking is QUITE DIFFERENT from most of yall.

The spot where I boondock Almost every year is up in the mountains of SW Colorado.
There is NO cell service since I am 8 miles from the nearest town. I am at the foot of a few mountains that rise up over 3500 feet near the camp. I do Not have a TV in/on my RV. I use the place as a base camp. It is my slice of heaven hear on earth (peace and quiet) I am usually in my Jeep or dual sport bike "out and about" seeing things most people never see. I use my spot for only a few weeks a year. I hang clothes on a cloths line to dry, I don't use electric while i am camped here except for LED flashlights and camp lanterns.
I do have propane for heat because mid 30s at night is cold even in July.
I do have some running water, but not hot water.

I have found that you can have everything you need for pennies, if you reduce things to what you Really need and not just want.
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Old 08-13-2019, 01:31 PM   #92
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Here ya go ... maybe an endless clean water supply for RV boondocking is just about here:

https://www.zeromasswater.com/ap/?ut...SAAEgLlNfD_BwE
Those panels will have to compete with your solar panels, and wondering how much water they will produce in 10% humidity?
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Old 08-13-2019, 02:11 PM   #93
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In any case, that battery should be plenty for boondocking, and with the lower weight of an RV a converted Daimler semi should have decent range. Basically, if you can make a viable electric semi truck (and many companies are doing so) then it is certainly possible to make a viable electric RV.
Not a single word on price anywhere for the Daimler semi, at your very optimistic $145 kwh that's an $80,000 battery by itself. The battery cost almost as much as my RV. At highway speed I believe its about 70% aero 30% weight which is why a 80k semi gets 6.5 mpg while a 40k MH gets maybe 8 mpg.

"Decent range" is pretty subjective but most are used to 500+miles of range and not waiting 90 minutes for an 80% fill-up. Most diesel pushers are 800+ mile per tank semis as much as 2000 miles, my gas MH does 500 no problem.

I think to be viable 500 miles is a minimum for an RV so you could drive all day then charge overnight somewhere. I guess some who stay close to home might be ok with less, not sure how big a market there is for that.
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Old 08-13-2019, 02:58 PM   #94
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The Tesla truck and the Daimler e-trucks are basically either point to point with massive charging stations at each end, or day use, with truck returning to origin point at end of day to charge. A Tesla megacharger uses 1.2 megawatts, which is what 50 average homes use or almost the total output of one of those massive wind generators you see in the south.
Yes you can charge at a slower rate and require less power, but the very definition of boondocking assumes you will not be anywhere close to any power source big enough to recharge your batteries in a reasonable length of time. So unless you want to stay close to civilization and charging stations, solar will have to improve massively before it becomes practical to recharge your vehicle.
Can't really see the government putting charging stations on BLM land anytime soon.
Water is no problem, I have powered water, just add water and it is ready to drink.
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Old 08-13-2019, 03:25 PM   #95
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Here ya go ... maybe an endless clean water supply for RV boondocking is just about here:

https://www.zeromasswater.com/ap/?ut...SAAEgLlNfD_BwE
One panel is 4’x8’x3.5’ and weighs 340lbs. They are not currently configured for RV’s or boats. Wonder why?

I did not see any info on price or a statement on the amount of water produced daily.
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Old 08-13-2019, 03:38 PM   #96
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That'd be the difference between current state of the art (lithium ion) vs early 'low tech' (e.g. lead acid) batteries. Also don't forget that EVs have been around in some form off and on for a long time... the early Prius, the EV1, heck the first electric car was created ~1832.



Filtering rain water falling on the RV can cover your water supply in many locations, but in desert areas you're going to need something like a 'water maker' filter and a lake or stream. I doubt the air collection systems could gather enough water to fully supply one person in desert areas, let alone a group.

Of course, if you can eliminate or minimize the black and grey water tanks through various methods discussed previously then it shouldn't be difficult to devote that saved space to holding tanks large enough to last you two weeks with no water coming in.
Suggest a review of your own words. You described the “drained” batteries as EV batteries. We’re you not discussing lithium batteries?

Boondocking for 2 weeks is not terribly difficult right now using a properly equipped RV and current technology.

All I really need are those $145/kWh lithium batteries you mentioned. Where can I get them?
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Old 08-13-2019, 03:39 PM   #97
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One panel is 4’x8’x3.5’ and weighs 340lbs. They are not currently configured for RV’s or boats. Wonder why?

I did not see any info on price or a statement on the amount of water produced daily.
Most ads say for drinking and cooking and each panel only has a 8 gallon tank so probably won't be able to take long showers. I imagine as humidity falls, output does too. It basically a dehumidifier that uses the sun, so like solar panels, production will fall on cloudy days.
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:18 PM   #98
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The individual cell manufacturing cost (not your price for a finished pack) may be down to $145 at this point. You will not pay $145 per kwh for a finished pack for a very long time.

Everyone is so extreme on their views, either we will have electric RV's tomorrow or they are worse than fossil fuels and we should give up on them.

Probably same arguments about horses vs combustion engines when became viable in a vehicle.

Batteries are heavier and more expensive than fuel tanks but the motors and transmission are lighter and cheaper. Batteries are getting steadily cheaper and more energy dense, but it is a slow process.

Electricity must come from somewhere probably fossil fuels for the most part initially, but now your vehicle isn't tied to a specific fuel and all the emission equipment you guys complain about is now at the power plant instead and is much more effective, this is called "the long tailpipe". Now you can mix solar nuclear, wind and fossil fuels and the cars don't have to change.

Lithium batteries are highly recyclable.

Electrification is pretty much a given at this point its just a matter of when
Let’s move past speculation on pricing.

One of our owners recently built his own lithium battery bank from individual 3.2v cells. He negotiated what he felt was a very good price directly from a Chinese manufacturer. Cells and shipping equaled $300/kWh.

AM Solar is currently selling 100ah 3.2v Cell’s at a discount price of $124. Four of those cells would create a 100ah 12v battery. This equates to a 1Kwh battery (technically 1.2kwh) for $496.

A friend and coworker who assembles 24v lithium batteries, complete with a BMS and chargers, for sale and rental to Hollywood productions, says the AM Solar price is about what he pays.

This is what I can get my hands on for $300-500. The cells to assemble a 1Kwh lithium battery, with no warranty or customer support, no R&D and no BMS.

Sure, a large scale buyer can pay less. And a manufacturer can say they produce them for whatever figure they choose. We pay what is costs at the store. Right now a 100ah or 1Kwh lithium battery goes for about $1000 at the retail level. Some are more, some less. Still waiting for info on the $145 units.

I also believe it is an inaccurate statement to say, “Everyone is so extreme on their views.”
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