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Old 08-13-2019, 04:31 PM   #99
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“Everyone is so extreme on their views.”
To some extreme is realistic. Most on this thread agree ev car and trucks are in the future, and it will be a good thing. But some look at the reality of making it happen and see some of the problems that still have to be solved.....
Remember the GM EV1. First built in 1996. "Wave of the future" built 23 years ago. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
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Old 08-13-2019, 04:41 PM   #100
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The first electric car was built over 135 years ago.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car
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Old 08-13-2019, 05:55 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekanic View Post
I have to tell you folks My idea of boondocking is QUITE DIFFERENT from most of yall.

The spot where I boondock Almost every year is up in the mountains of SW Colorado.
There is NO cell service since I am 8 miles from the nearest town. I am at the foot of a few mountains that rise up over 3500 feet near the camp. I do Not have a TV in/on my RV. I use the place as a base camp. It is my slice of heaven hear on earth (peace and quiet) I am usually in my Jeep or dual sport bike "out and about" seeing things most people never see. I use my spot for only a few weeks a year. I hang clothes on a cloths line to dry, I don't use electric while i am camped here except for LED flashlights and camp lanterns.
I do have propane for heat because mid 30s at night is cold even in July.
I do have some running water, but not hot water.

I have found that you can have everything you need for pennies, if you reduce things to what you Really need and not just want.
First - a great post and thanks for sharing!

Second - what you're pointing out is the not-so-subtle difference between getting way out there and staying out there "one or more nights for short term outdoor recreation goals", and ... getting way out there and staying out there "one or more weeks/months for somewhat general living which may include many activities".

Myself and the DW have done both and some in between - via getting way out there backpacking at 10K feet altitude in the High Sierras, and via getting way out there and honkering down in a fully provisioned small motorhome to eat a hot fried or baked or microwaved meal, maybe take a hot shower, and maybe watch a movie or read a book in complete comfort regardless of the weather outside. We got a "high" from the one when we were younger, and a "high" from the other now.

For us now ... it doesn't get any better than enjoying our fully self-contained small motorhome to get way out there about anywhere that a 2WD PU can go - and then live out there a few days as if at home.

During the day we fish, hike, explore, climb hillsides and cayons looking for rocks, birdwatch, and during the evening we can watch a movie and/or read a book while inside the RV in a lounge chair.

I love the concept of and what you can do with an "expedition vehicle", but in reality we can only afford a "scaled-down poor man's version" built by Winnebago and Ford.
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Old 08-13-2019, 06:17 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by RVPioneer View Post
One panel is 4’x8’x3.5’ and weighs 340lbs. They are not currently configured for RV’s or boats. Wonder why?

I did not see any info on price or a statement on the amount of water produced daily.

If you download the spec sheet it provides this value:
"Production of water by SOURCE Hydropanels is dependent on local measures of relative humidity (RH) and solar energy (kWh). SOURCEHydropanels produce an average of 2-5 liters of water daily"


Again, over the years, I've camped for weeks at a time without any energy source other than gathered wood for a cooking fire. Water from lakes/rivers and streams. In more modern times I started using high end filters to purify the water, they are available now. As for having to be totally independent of sources of energy etc. I'm not sure how or why for our mobile units. Currently, boondocking on government land is generally limited to 14 days without moving on most forest service land, and much of the BLM lands. Areas where you can stay longer are more limited.


Currently I'm seeing more and more pressure to limit RV stays in cities, and boondocking areas. On our local news today:

https://kjzz.com/news/local/liberty-...ng-in-cars-rvs

The video version had a fair bit of complaining. My local community facebook page has periodic complaints about RV's in the Walmart parking lot, and the last few land management meetings I've attended in BLM offices have had a lot of folks complaining about boondockers, and for the most part the only folks supporting it at all were a couple off roading groups of ATV and 4 wheel drive enthusiasts.


I think boondocking is going to become less and less common in large part because of heavy demands from competing groups on limited land unable to support the rapidly increasing demands of an expanding population.
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Old 08-14-2019, 06:45 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by RVPioneer View Post
Suggest a review of your own words. You described the “drained” batteries as EV batteries. We’re you not discussing lithium batteries?
Yes, I was talking about EV batteries... so that includes lithium... and lead acid... and nickel-metal hydride... and nickel-cadmium... and, well presumably you get the point.

Words reviewed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVPioneer View Post
All I really need are those $145/kWh lithium batteries you mentioned. Where can I get them?
I cited the $145 figure in response to your question about replacing burned out batteries in an existing pack. That doesn't mean cells are individually available for retail at the same price.

That said, estimates of the point when (manufacturer) battery cell prices will drop below $100 per kWh range from two to seven years. So, in the future time frame I was talking about it is likely that EV batteries will cost significantly less.
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Old 08-14-2019, 10:22 PM   #104
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Technically possible, but pricing?

I could absolutely imagine hybrid RVs, but not fully electric RVs, if only for the near future.

You would certainly want "expando" solar cells (self-retracting wings off the side in lieu of awnings). Maybe supplementing solar with a generator (LP?).

I mean most RVers drive maybe six hours a day, and major highways and freeways already have a fair number of recharging stations, and that amount is supposed to double in two years.

Supercapacitors will be combined with batteries to enable really fast recharging, and I doubt the cost will be a serious consideration - the components are cheap. And really, just add WiFi, and I could wait an hour for a good recharge! More if there's a good eatery, or grocery store, in walking distance.

You would want the batteries above the tanks, since bottoming out onto the batteries could get all manner of pyrotechnical.

Speaking of tanks, NASA has the technology to recycle water. (Even urine, but let's not go crazy - grey water will do fine.) I have no idea how, but hell, they're only astronauts - how smart can they be? Maybe there's a way to make that stuff work for RVers.

And we REALLY need a better way of getting rid of trash. I have no answers, myself.

In a very short time, we will have choices of satellite cellphone services. There are already 60 satellites in place, and that's the start of an industry. Starlink will put up 12,000 satellites, Amazon will more than double that. At a launch rate of 60/launch, they will need to launch WEEKLY to be viable. That's a lot of work just so I can watch West Wing re-runs in the desert! But , thankee lads.
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Old 08-15-2019, 07:14 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBDunkerson View Post
Yes, I was talking about EV batteries... so that includes lithium... and lead acid... and nickel-metal hydride... and nickel-cadmium... and, well presumably you get the point.

Words reviewed.



I cited the $145 figure in response to your question about replacing burned out batteries in an existing pack. That doesn't mean cells are individually available for retail at the same price.

That said, estimates of the point when (manufacturer) battery cell prices will drop below $100 per kWh range from two to seven years. So, in the future time frame I was talking about it is likely that EV batteries will cost significantly less.
Would you tell is about all the EV’s that use LA batteries? Just the street legal ones would be sufficient.

Would you tell us about a large market for drained LA batteries, other than a recycling program?

I would presume that most, following this thread, presumed you have been discussing lithium batteries.

For the record, you cited the the $145 figure in response to a question by Phil G.

That may or may not be an accurate figure provided by a manufacturer for the cost of production. It is certainly not accurate in relation to the cost to the consumer.
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Old 08-15-2019, 07:17 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Searching_Ut View Post
If you download the spec sheet it provides this value:
"Production of water by SOURCE Hydropanels is dependent on local measures of relative humidity (RH) and solar energy (kWh). SOURCEHydropanels produce an average of 2-5 liters of water daily"


Again, over the years, I've camped for weeks at a time without any energy source other than gathered wood for a cooking fire. Water from lakes/rivers and streams. In more modern times I started using high end filters to purify the water, they are available now. As for having to be totally independent of sources of energy etc. I'm not sure how or why for our mobile units. Currently, boondocking on government land is generally limited to 14 days without moving on most forest service land, and much of the BLM lands. Areas where you can stay longer are more limited.


Currently I'm seeing more and more pressure to limit RV stays in cities, and boondocking areas. On our local news today:

https://kjzz.com/news/local/liberty-...ng-in-cars-rvs

The video version had a fair bit of complaining. My local community facebook page has periodic complaints about RV's in the Walmart parking lot, and the last few land management meetings I've attended in BLM offices have had a lot of folks complaining about boondockers, and for the most part the only folks supporting it at all were a couple off roading groups of ATV and 4 wheel drive enthusiasts.


I think boondocking is going to become less and less common in large part because of heavy demands from competing groups on limited land unable to support the rapidly increasing demands of an expanding population.
That’s fantastic. We now have a 340 lb, 112 cubic foot box that makes just enough water per day for morning coffee.
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Old 08-15-2019, 10:35 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by MBrant View Post
I could absolutely imagine hybrid RVs, but not fully electric RVs, if only for the near future.
I think the advent of fully electric semis proves that the electric RVs are possible, but yes a 'hybrid' setup (e.g. enough battery and solar to cover everything except driving and possibly climate control) is going to be more cost effective for quite a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrant View Post
And really, just add WiFi, and I could wait an hour for a good recharge! More if there's a good eatery, or grocery store, in walking distance.
Yep, ease of plugged in charging will likely delay the advent of 'mostly solar powered' EVs even once electric becomes common. There probably won't ever be a reason NOT to have plugged in charging as an option, but plenty of RVs could get by with just solar power... if the cost for high efficiency panels comes down enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrant View Post
Speaking of tanks, NASA has the technology to recycle water. (Even urine, but let's not go crazy - grey water will do fine.) I have no idea how, but hell, they're only astronauts - how smart can they be? Maybe there's a way to make that stuff work for RVers.
Yeah, I looked in to that kind of filtering. Anything that could handle even grey water in sufficient quantities for an RV would generally be a custom job and take up about half the size of the RV. Maybe some day RV parks and other places with 'dump stations' will instead have 'water recycling', but we're probably a long way from making that technology portable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrant View Post
And we REALLY need a better way of getting rid of trash. I have no answers, myself.
The standard answer seems to be to remove and throw out packaging at the store and then burn everything you can in a campfire. Should be able to minimize or eliminate trash if you are careful about what you buy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBrant View Post
In a very short time, we will have choices of satellite cellphone services.
Might work for most things, but latency is going to be an issue for any application which needs 'real-time response' (e.g. teleoperation of the vehicle).
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Old 08-15-2019, 10:47 AM   #108
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Something you're not considering

You can't even drop anchor anywhere in the ocean near land from your sailing vessel. There are rules. The are specific anchorages. You also can't stop in your RV anywhere you please. Land is owned by someone. You have to reserve a spot in state and national parks. There are rules on how long you can stay. You need a small rig to find a space on BLM land. Your homework should include the part about where you will boondock. It is getting g near impossible to find a spot in an RV PARK (in an nice area) without reservations months in advance. Too many RVS not enough space for them anymore. Quartzsite AZ is always available if you like that sort of place. Do look into this part of the plan.
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Old 08-15-2019, 10:58 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVPioneer View Post
Would you tell is about all the EV’s that use LA batteries?
At last count? I think that would be... all of them. The Tesla Model Y is supposed to get rid of the 12V lead acid battery, but up to now that's been standard

...and, of course, all of the hybrid gasoline / electric vehicles use lead acid

...and the EV1... RAV4 EV... Ford Ranger EV...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVPioneer View Post
Would you tell us about a large market for drained LA batteries, other than a recycling program?
I already did, but maybe you will accept it coming from someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RVPioneer View Post
I would presume
Yeah. Maybe do less of that.
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Old 08-15-2019, 10:27 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by CBDunkerson View Post
I think the advent of fully electric semis proves that the electric RVs are possible, but yes a 'hybrid' setup (e.g. enough battery and solar to cover everything except driving and possibly climate control) is going to be more cost effective for quite a while.



Yep, ease of plugged in charging will likely delay the advent of 'mostly solar powered' EVs even once electric becomes common. There probably won't ever be a reason NOT to have plugged in charging as an option, but plenty of RVs could get by with just solar power... if the cost for high efficiency panels comes down enough.



Yeah, I looked in to that kind of filtering. Anything that could handle even grey water in sufficient quantities for an RV would generally be a custom job and take up about half the size of the RV. Maybe some day RV parks and other places with 'dump stations' will instead have 'water recycling', but we're probably a long way from making that technology portable.



The standard answer seems to be to remove and throw out packaging at the store and then burn everything you can in a campfire. Should be able to minimize or eliminate trash if you are careful about what you buy.



Might work for most things, but latency is going to be an issue for any application which needs 'real-time response' (e.g. teleoperation of the vehicle).
All good points except the last. Extremely low latency is probably the best reason for the satellites. Lasers in a vacuum are MUCH faster than lasers in glass, and the routing is easier in space than on the ground - fewer routers.

I just can't imagine that this is ever going to be practical, though.
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Old 08-15-2019, 11:42 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by robbie_lr View Post
You can't even drop anchor .....
There is an infinite number of places to drop an anchor and places to boondock.

For all practical purposes there are no rules.

Here are three diverse examples. Crystal Beach on the GOM in Texas. Twenty-two miles of beach to park on. Lake Mead NRA if you like an arid climate and a nice lake. Then there is the Rimrock Lake area the Cascade if you like mountains streams.

I recently boondocked in the Washington DC area. No not on the Capitol Mall or in Front of the White house. There are rules about that!
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:00 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by MBrant View Post
All good points except the last. Extremely low latency is probably the best reason for the satellites. Lasers in a vacuum are MUCH faster than lasers in glass, and the routing is easier in space than on the ground - fewer routers.
Ok... but there is still the problem that the distance to the satellite and back is roughly the equivalent of circumnavigating the globe twice. That greater distance is always going to result in greater latency.

Or am I missing something?
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