Go Back   iRV2 Forums > CAMPING, TRAVEL and TRIP PLANNING > Boondocking
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-25-2016, 02:16 PM   #1
Senior Member
 
jacwjames's Avatar
 
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 4,597
Generator Hertz vs Volts

I posted earlier regarding running a well pump off of a generator. The property that I own does not have power supply yet and I've been getting everything ready to set a well and do a test.

I needed a generator and was looking at options and decided to buy a 10KW generator head from Harbor Freight and mount it on the front of my Craftsman Lawn Mower.
Generator Head - 10,000 Watts Max, Belt Driven

I mounted it on the front of the mower and am using the electric clutch to drive the generator head. The head required a minimum of 16 HP to run it and the engine on the mower is a 20 HP Kolher with a governor assembly which is suppose to maintain constant RPM and compensate for load. I need to maintain 3600 RPM to achieve 60Hz.

See attached photo of Mounting, volts, and hertz.

I am able to regulate the RPM and can achieve the 60 hz but as I apply a load it will fluctuate, I can probably get it to float between 59-61 hertz under a heavy load. The voltage will also fluctuate between ~107 & 114 but I am not able to achieve 120 volt without substantially exceeding 60 hertz.

My question is how critical is the HZ when operating a well pump or other equipment, is a range of 58-62 hertz acceptable?

My intent was to be able to use the generator mounted on the mower to build fences, garage etc while I get ready to build a house. Is there any way to regulate this better??? The advantage is the mobility of the unit, ease of starting/stopping.

I've got ~$325$ into buying the generator head, mounting supplies, pulley and belt but if the it won't provide me with a good power I'll cut my losses an buy a generator. Long term I was hoping to be able to use the generator for a backup power supply for the house although I do have a 7.5KW generator in my motorhome that would also work for some things but does not have a 240 volt output.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Generator Mount Picture.pdf (214.0 KB, 74 views)
File Type: pdf Hertz.pdf (130.3 KB, 44 views)
File Type: pdf Volts.pdf (130.7 KB, 35 views)
__________________

__________________
Jim J
2002 Monaco Windsor 38 PKD
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee w/5.7 Hemi
jacwjames is online now   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 01-25-2016, 02:33 PM   #2
Senior Member
 
dennis45's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC
Posts: 6,467
In theory, your idea is great. However, your Kohler engine on your lawnmower uses a Mechanical Governor to regulate RPM. This works fine for a lawnmower but comes up short when driving a generator. If memory serves me correct the mechanical governor is rated at 3-5% accuracy.
When this engine is applied to a generator, it comes equipped with an Electronic Governor which is rated in the range of 1%.
Now to answer your question, 59-61 Hz will not adversely effect your pump. If you are running a Timed Device such as a computer or clock, those would be effected.
As far as voltage, I'm not an electrician but in my opinion, a 3-5% swing should not be a problem for the electric pump. But I leave that to others for comment.
__________________

__________________
Dennis & Carol
2003, 4006, 41' DutchStar, Spartan, ISC 8.3L W/BanksPower - 2013 Honda CRV, BlueOx Baseplate, Aventa Bar & Patriot Brake. And the 04 Bird, Sunshine Car.
dennis45 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2016, 02:58 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 9,907
Take a look at your governor linkage. Some links have small springs wrapped around them to take the slight slack out of the link and hole.

They are there to buffer the movement. Yours could be dirty and sticking to the linkage rods.

If no springs, the links themself may be worn, if it's an old engine.

Couple new links may help.
__________________
twinboat is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2016, 03:06 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 5,981
IF you are staying within 2 Hz I do not see a problem.

FWIW It's been a while since I took a motors course. As I recall the issues are heating in the windings and speed. A couple Hz will not be a big deal. With a straight mechanical motor there is a lot of slack for startup. For long time operation it can get to be more of an issue. Insert electronic controls and there are too many variables. Some won't care and some will shut down depending on what else is involved.
__________________
nothermark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2016, 03:08 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
dennis45's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC
Posts: 6,467
Since you are running a water pump and not the computer system for the dooms day device, I suggest you turn the pump on and set the governor to 60Hz. When you turn it off, it will likely jump to 62-63 Hz but who cares? When you turn it back on, it goes back to 60....
__________________
Dennis & Carol
2003, 4006, 41' DutchStar, Spartan, ISC 8.3L W/BanksPower - 2013 Honda CRV, BlueOx Baseplate, Aventa Bar & Patriot Brake. And the 04 Bird, Sunshine Car.
dennis45 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2016, 03:14 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
jacwjames's Avatar
 
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 4,597
My governor does use a combination of links and springs. I did blow everything out with compressed air prior to testing but didn't spray it down with anything. I'll try giving that a try to see if it helps.

The governor is doing it's job as I put it under a couple different loads and it does compensate as it gets up to speed.

One issue is that I had to use a smaller pulley on the generator to achieve the 3600 RPM. The engine speed is ~2650 rpm to achieve the 3600 rpm for the generator. I added some more tension on the belt which help stabilize the system and after I ran it for awhile it seemed to improve.
__________________
Jim J
2002 Monaco Windsor 38 PKD
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee w/5.7 Hemi
jacwjames is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2016, 03:26 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
jacwjames's Avatar
 
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 4,597
Dennis45

That was my thought, after playing with the generator under load I can get it to the 60 hertz.

I think I can determine what to preset the RPM's to, slightly higher then needed, so that when I turn the pump on it will pull the Hertz down to the 60.

I'm thinking about hooking up some sort of adjusting screw on the throttle assemble to have a little more precision while doing this.
__________________
Jim J
2002 Monaco Windsor 38 PKD
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee w/5.7 Hemi
jacwjames is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2016, 03:53 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
dennis45's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC
Posts: 6,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacwjames View Post
Dennis45

That was my thought, after playing with the generator under load I can get it to the 60 hertz.

I think I can determine what to preset the RPM's to, slightly higher then needed, so that when I turn the pump on it will pull the Hertz down to the 60.

I'm thinking about hooking up some sort of adjusting screw on the throttle assemble to have a little more precision while doing this.
That's about all you can expect with the set up you have. Years ago, I was a Kohler dealer when the Command engine first came out and I know they have a bunch of different throttle control devices for various applications. You might try a Kohler dealer with your Model/Ser number to see what's available.
__________________
Dennis & Carol
2003, 4006, 41' DutchStar, Spartan, ISC 8.3L W/BanksPower - 2013 Honda CRV, BlueOx Baseplate, Aventa Bar & Patriot Brake. And the 04 Bird, Sunshine Car.
dennis45 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2016, 04:35 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
jacwjames's Avatar
 
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 4,597
I do have a complete service manual for the engine and it does have multi position spring locations with different springs available that provide different tension.

I may do some checking on coming up with a solution to provide more constant RPM output.
__________________
Jim J
2002 Monaco Windsor 38 PKD
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee w/5.7 Hemi
jacwjames is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2016, 01:08 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
jacwjames's Avatar
 
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 4,597
I reviewed the manual on the Kohler Engine and the setup of the governor does allow for some adjusting as to the sensitivity. I completely cleaned the governor mechanism and blew it all off with compressed air. The governor is under the air filter assembly and hard to access without removing the air filter but once I did I was able to completely clean, it did have a heavy buildup of dirt/oil. I removed the one spring that adjusts the sensitivity and made sure it was completely clean. I did move the leverage point 1 hole up which should provide for better reaction to loads to maintain a steady RPM.

After I was done I tested the system again and it seemed to improve as I can set the RPM and after adding a load the engine came closer to maintaining the set point, which is 2600 engine rpm to get a 3600 generator rpm. I think I can now stay between 59-61 hertz under load, possibly even better once the system reaches steady state.

The first time I start the pump there will not be any water in the pipe column and as it builds head it will increase the amp draw but once it pumps a full stream I should be able set the engine RPM and achieve steady state Hertz output.
__________________
Jim J
2002 Monaco Windsor 38 PKD
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee w/5.7 Hemi
jacwjames is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2016, 02:01 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
dennis45's Avatar


 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC
Posts: 6,467
Quote:
Originally Posted by jacwjames View Post
I reviewed the manual on the Kohler Engine and the setup of the governor does allow for some adjusting as to the sensitivity. I completely cleaned the governor mechanism and blew it all off with compressed air. The governor is under the air filter assembly and hard to access without removing the air filter but once I did I was able to completely clean, it did have a heavy buildup of dirt/oil. I removed the one spring that adjusts the sensitivity and made sure it was completely clean. I did move the leverage point 1 hole up which should provide for better reaction to loads to maintain a steady RPM.

After I was done I tested the system again and it seemed to improve as I can set the RPM and after adding a load the engine came closer to maintaining the set point, which is 2600 engine rpm to get a 3600 generator rpm. I think I can now stay between 59-61 hertz under load, possibly even better once the system reaches steady state.

The first time I start the pump there will not be any water in the pipe column and as it builds head it will increase the amp draw but once it pumps a full stream I should be able set the engine RPM and achieve steady state Hertz output.
Winner,,,,Winner, Chicken Dinner,
One thing to keep in mind, your 20 HP Kohler is rated at 3600 RPM so when you slow it down to 2600, you do not have the full 20 HP. As long as you are not expecting a full 10KW from the generator, no problem.
__________________
Dennis & Carol
2003, 4006, 41' DutchStar, Spartan, ISC 8.3L W/BanksPower - 2013 Honda CRV, BlueOx Baseplate, Aventa Bar & Patriot Brake. And the 04 Bird, Sunshine Car.
dennis45 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2016, 05:10 PM   #12
Senior Member
 
wa8yxm's Avatar
 
Damon Owners Club
Workhorse Chassis Owner
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 22,821
107 during STARTING might not be a problem.. 59HZ will not be a problem, nor is 61.. In fact you can likely go to 62 if you need to.

Though the standard is more stringent, due to some devices being kind of fussy. (Will look it up) I'd say going 66Hz top should be OK,

Checking the standards for Commercial power they are much stricter (1/2 Hz in the document referenced) but I read recently where they became a bit more lax.. But since you are driving a SINGLE device,,, I;'d not worry if you ran just a bit high.

Electronics (your pump does contain a small amount) are more particular but the tollerance on the one electronic part is greater than 10% so it should not mind frequency a bit high.
__________________
Home is where I park it!
wa8yxm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2016, 07:19 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
jacwjames's Avatar
 
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 4,597
Maximum RPM on the engine is 3750 but the engine was actually set at about 2800 RPM when I started, I'm running almost full throttle. Don't know the horsepower but I'm sure it is enough to pull the 1 HP pump I'm installing.

After I ran the generator for a while it seemed like the voltage crept up a little running ~110 at the 60 hertz, maybe breakin had something to do with that. Both are tied to the rpm so it will be a balancing act. I'll monitor the voltage, hertz output of the generator and check the amps on each leg as I test.

I don't have to run the pump long, just long enough to know that the well has decent recovery and to purge the well so that I can do a water test. I'm guessing a couple hours total over 2 days. I'll leave everything set up so I can use the well during our construction period and will probably make due with the generator during that time until I can permanently wire in the system.
__________________
Jim J
2002 Monaco Windsor 38 PKD
2005 Jeep Grand Cherokee w/5.7 Hemi
jacwjames is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2016, 07:44 PM   #14
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 19
I worked with electric variable frequency drives (VFD's) many times as an engineer. Your pump motor should be fine with the Hertz varying in the 59 - 61 range. Generators on RV's vary that much as load changes.

Electric VFD's control alternating current motor speeds by varying the Hertz output. We have used VFD's as low as 6 Hertz and as high as 90 Hertz, but with motors that are designed for the service, not residential grade motors.

I assume you have a centrifugal pump, such as a submersible. The horsepower requirement for a centrifugal pump varies as the CUBE of the speed. As the speed goes down below 60 Hertz, the power requirement drops quickly, so the motor runs cooler, and nothing bad happens to it. As it runs faster than 60 Hertz, the load goes up quickly. Chances are that your pump doesn't require full nameplate horsepower at 60 Hertz, so you probably have enough reserve to be safe for some speed above 60 Hertz. If you do the math, by the time you get to 65 Hertz, the pump's power requirement is up to 26% more than at 60 Hertz. So you are safer setting it up to stay below 60 hertz and letting it run 55 to 60 Hertz as it wants to.
__________________

__________________
ramblerguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
generator



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Battery voltage drops to 8 volts then returns to normal skbrla RV Systems & Appliances 8 01-21-2016 12:30 PM
93 Brave-19 volts after charge? firenfix Class A Motorhome Discussions 1 04-03-2015 06:35 PM
Battery charging below 13 volts georgetown350 MH-General Discussions & Problems 17 10-20-2014 10:23 AM
Low voltage in coach with correct volts at outlet where plugged into freen03 Newmar Owner's Forum 46 08-28-2014 05:21 PM
No 12 volts in Coach. 12 to BCC - stops there I guess. Rstefani Thor Industries Owner's Forum 2 07-27-2014 02:40 PM

» Virginia Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.