Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
RV Trip Planning Discussions

Go Back   iRV2 Forums > CAMPING, TRAVEL and TRIP PLANNING > Boondocking
Click Here to Login
Join iRV2 Today

Mission Statement: Supporting thoughtful exchange of knowledge, values and experience among RV enthusiasts.
Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on iRV2
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-26-2017, 08:02 AM   #29
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 1,172
fair enough - my prices were self installed but including all brackets etc - and yes a PWM controller. though $.65us a watt is CHEAP.

Now heres a thought, run 24v panels - 24v PWM, 24v for the GC2's, and then tap off 12v to the main shunt off the trailer power....as long as you dont use a common ground for the 12v and 24 i think that would work.... No central monitoring though as you'd have two different paths..

Alas my inverter is 12v though a 24v would be the way to go , as you mentioned much smaller cables...
__________________
2017 F-350 6.7 Diesel, CCSB SRW - 2005 F350 6.0
2018 Alpine 3660FL - 2005 Alfa SYF30RLIK
--Full time 2016 to 2019-- Seasonal now
mrgrayaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Join the #1 RV Forum Today - It's Totally Free!

iRV2.com RV Community - Are you about to start a new improvement on your RV or need some help with some maintenance? Do you need advice on what products to buy? Or maybe you can give others some advice? No matter where you fit in you'll find that iRV2 is a great community to join. Best of all it's totally FREE!

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest so you have limited access to our community. Please take the time to register and you will gain a lot of great new features including; the ability to participate in discussions, network with other RV owners, see fewer ads, upload photographs, create an RV blog, send private messages and so much, much more!

Old 04-26-2017, 08:12 AM   #30
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 1,172
I just re-read the thread a bit more carefully, and appreciate the calculations and work put in by the POC in planning this. The attempting to run the AC is whats going to kill you........and makes our use case a little less relevant. I had no hope of the running the AC with my setup - though we CAN run our 8k front unit for a bit.
__________________
2017 F-350 6.7 Diesel, CCSB SRW - 2005 F350 6.0
2018 Alpine 3660FL - 2005 Alfa SYF30RLIK
--Full time 2016 to 2019-- Seasonal now
mrgrayaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 08:18 AM   #31
Senior Member
 
brulaz's Avatar
 
Outdoors RV Owners Club
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Ontario Canada
Posts: 1,940
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgrayaz View Post
...
Now heres a thought, run 24v panels - 24v PWM, 24v for the GC2's, and then tap off 12v to the main shunt off the trailer power....as long as you dont use a common ground for the 12v and 24 i think that would work.... No central monitoring though as you'd have two different paths..
...
Yep, PWM can work with 24V panels and 24V battery array. As long as I could get 32V out of it for battery equalization. But in my case I already have this wonderful 30A mppt charger. Maybe for a supplemental portable system though, two small, light 12V panels in series with a pwm would be nice.

But tapping off 12V is prolly not a good idea as you would discharge one set of 12V batts more than another. Keeping them all balanced and properly charged would become an issue I think.

I will be tapping off 12V for the emergency brake switch as that is supposed to be a direct, unfused line. But hopefully it will never get used.
__________________
2014 Timber Ridge 240RKS, 70K miles
690W Rooftop + 340W Portable Solar, 215Ah GC2s@24V
2016 Ram 2500 CTD 4x4 RegCab SLT, 10-11 mpgUS tow
brulaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 08:22 AM   #32
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 1,172
Quote:
Originally Posted by brulaz View Post
Yep, PWM can work with 24V panels and 24V battery array. As long as I could get 32V out of it for battery equalization. But in my case I already have this wonderful 30A mppt charger. Maybe for a supplemental portable system though, two small, light 12V panels in series with a pwm would be nice.

But tapping off 12V is prolly not a good idea as you would discharge one set of 12V batts more than another. Keeping them all balanced and properly charged would become an issue I think.

I will be tapping off 12V for the emergency brake switch as that is supposed to be a direct, unfused line. But hopefully it will never get used.
Yep and they wouldn't self level because main charging would be in Serial. Bad idea for every day use, you'd get very uneven wear on those two cells. - I would say just fine for the E-brake, as your right it "Hopefully" never gets used heh.
__________________
2017 F-350 6.7 Diesel, CCSB SRW - 2005 F350 6.0
2018 Alpine 3660FL - 2005 Alfa SYF30RLIK
--Full time 2016 to 2019-- Seasonal now
mrgrayaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 09:45 AM   #33
Senior Member
 
Natebert's Avatar
 
Outdoors RV Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 250
All good feedback guys!

I was originally planning on using a 12v system to keep the AH capacity at a maximum (parallel). I'm not afraid to use 1/0 gauge wire but I'm reading that equalizing 6 batteries is not something easily done and must then be something I have to consider. (I'll admit that the concept of equalization in a large battery bank is something that I need to do more research on, to better understand.)

I am reluctant to go to 24v, because I lose yet half again my AH usable capacity. Increasing the depth of discharge, reducing battery useful life. However, it would reduce the need to equalize only 3 'sets' of batteries instead of 6 and if this makes the processes of equalization easier to maintain in the long run, then maybe this is the way to go.

I can go as high as 48v, but yet again, I lose more capacity, and would need 8 batteries (weighing more) to accomplish this.

From the vendors spec sheets, the efficiency in the Victron electrical components (charger/inverter/mppt controller) is nearly the same at either of these voltages. (~95% efficient) so my only losses at the different voltages would be in the wiring?

Spec sheet for solar charge controller:
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...150-100-EN.pdf

Spec sheet for inverter/charger:
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...VA-120V-EN.pdf

I believe that I can accommodate the need/cost for huge 1/0 gauge wire and I'd like to continue discussions around the merits of each voltage, being mindful of the loss of capacity, as I am trying to completely avoid running a generator for day-2-day activities. Saving it for the weekends to vacumn/laundry, etc.

As you can see, I still am struggling with the 12v, 24v or even 48v decision.


Now, having fully measured the upcoming TT's roof and compartment spaces. I think I've chosen the right battery size/format (8d) for me and the right panel sizes that will best maximize my solar gathering abilities.

I have room and a good sturdy place right above the axles for at least 6 x 8D batteries, in any arrangement of voltages, and 'could' possibly accommodate 8 x 8D batteries should 48v be the best solution. (at the expense of $ and weight)

Below, these 2 drawings are essentially the same, only changing out components to operate at 12v vs 24v.

Does anybody see any problems with running nearly 100volts into the MPPT controller? The MPPT should be able to convert the extra volts into charging amps?

And this would help keep the wire diameter on the roof down to 8 gauge, for the very long 50-70' runs from the roof to the controller. (Keeping the distance from charge controller, batteries and inverter as short as physically possible)

I'm also incorporating a small panel to help maintain the existing coach batteries which could then be used in an emergency and to start the generator.

Again, here is my estimated consumption (and math which I hope is close to being correct)




If my math is right, I'm going to be under ~200ah consumed per day.

The 10 x 180w panels (1800w/hr), on a perfect 5 hour solar day, would yield 9000w total power gathered on the panel, calculated with a 20% loss, that's still ~7200 watts into the batteries, which would be right under my estimated normal day usage (~6860w). So it seems that I should be able to gather enough power to accommodate my consumption.

Then for capacity, at 12v, if I have a 750ah (usable) battery bank, then I might/could get up to ~4 days out of the battery system (using ~180ah/day) in the event of hazy/cloudy days. And/or it would help with keeping the battery cycles shallow, extending their useful life.

So here is the 12volt, with 750ah usable:


If I go with 24v, halving my capacity, I'm still within my daily consumption, and might/could weather 2 bad solar days in the event of a storm, etc. But then my Depth of Discharge is greater, reducing their useful life.

So then at 24v, 375ah usable would look like.


I'm no electrician, but have a vague understanding of the pixies in the wire and I really appreciate your time in reviewing all of this with me.

-Nate
__________________
2018 Grand Designs Momentum 376th
2009 Sportchassis RHA350 w/8.3 Cummins & Allison
Natebert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 10:08 AM   #34
Senior Member
 
computerguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: FT on the Road
Posts: 3,831
Wow, all over the place Natebert.
Really difficult to understand what you are doing.
12v maybe 48v,
200AH usage but your first post was for 1200AH bank.
200Ah in no way shape or form requires 1400+ watts on the roof.
Don't even see a refrigerator on your spreadsheet. How about the parasitic draw on your system?
Don't think you're understanding the whole 12v vs 24v storage and capacity equation either.
IMO better to put up one design and ask for commentary. So many alternatives and ifs, and, maybes. But there are others out there who may understand and offer advice...
__________________
I don't subscribe to threads I reply to so will not see your reply to my comment. Drop me a direct message if you want a reply from me.
Cheers!
computerguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 10:15 AM   #35
Senior Member
 
Natebert's Avatar
 
Outdoors RV Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 250
I suppose that using a 24v system (6x12v) and a battery balancer like this:

https://www.victronenergy.com/batter...ttery-balancer

Spec sheet:
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...alancer-EN.pdf

Would help keep the batteries in check?
__________________
2018 Grand Designs Momentum 376th
2009 Sportchassis RHA350 w/8.3 Cummins & Allison
Natebert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 10:24 AM   #36
Senior Member
 
baphenatem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Warren, MI
Posts: 268
Nate, the thing that you are not comprehending is that your energy use is in Watt-Hours, not Amp-Hours. 200Ah at 12 Volts yields 2400 Watt-Hours or 2.4kWh, as does 100Ah at 24 Volts or 50Ah at 48V. There are a number of advantages to the higher voltage systems, not the least of which is that your wiring losses decrease by the square of the reduction of current flowing through them. i.e., cut the current by half and the loss in the same wire goes down to one-quarter. Not to mention it is a whole lot easier to get fewer parallel batteries to charge and balance correctly.
__________________
Tom - KK8M -Warren, Michigan
MI Licensed Electrician, ISA Level 2 Certified I&C Tech, UL Certified PV Installer, Organic "Olla Irrigation" Gardener and bona fide Schlepper
baphenatem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 11:09 AM   #37
Senior Member
 
Natebert's Avatar
 
Outdoors RV Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by computerguy View Post
Wow, all over the place Natebert.
Really difficult to understand what you are doing.
12v maybe 48v,
200AH usage but your first post was for 1200AH bank.
200Ah in no way shape or form requires 1400+ watts on the roof.
Don't even see a refrigerator on your spreadsheet. How about the parasitic draw on your system?
Don't think you're understanding the whole 12v vs 24v storage and capacity equation either.
IMO better to put up one design and ask for commentary. So many alternatives and ifs, and, maybes. But there are others out there who may understand and offer advice...

Agreed, this post is a mess. If you only saw all of the variations using different components, combinations, etc that I didn't share...

Yes, there are many variables involved. Trying to determine realistic usage and capabilities, with different combinations of equipment and application have been difficult to wrap my head around all of it. Fortunately I have clean slate to work with as none of this is purchased yet.

Taking into account everybody's feedback/input has really begun to shape a solid system together for me.

Now that I've had a chance to actually measure the model of trailer I'm planning on purchasing, once my house sale closes, which is a Monemtium 376th. I've nailed down my available space and have a better idea of what I can actually fit in terms of panels and batteries, etc.

What I've come to notice as being interesting is that the AH per lb. of an AGM battery almost the same no matter how you slice it. Weather the batteries are 2v, 6v, or 12v. The capacity is basically the same per weight, so it's really a matter of best balancing number of cells, vs volts on the entire system.
Unfortunately LiFePo batteries are out of my league at this time. It would be sweet to use them because you get much greater efficiencies, but I just don't see it as being within my budget at this time.


So back to the technicalities and my understanding...

To me, the differences between 12v, 24v and 48v, in terms of electrical components and efficiencies when used to charge/invert is still fuzzy.

It comes down to this simple assumption and please correct me where I'm wrong here.

A 12v system offers max battery capacity with possible efficiency losses due to wire resistances (given the components have the same conversion efficiencies at any voltage).

48v offers max efficiency, at the cost of battery bank capacity.

24v would be right down the middle and might be the best option for me.

Some of the confusion comes from what I have been learning about along the way.

Guys, please let me know if/where I'm wrong here.

Considering if you run 12v batteries in parallel (to keep the volts at 12v for the entire system) you get additional capacity for each battery. If you run 12v batteries in series (you get higher volts, but at the cost of no additional capacity)

So taking into consideration from what I understand, a 12v, 250ah AGM deep cycle battery really doesn't hold 250ah of usable capacity. You really only get about 50% of this rated capacity before the volts drop too low to be usable. (so our 250ah battey now becomes a 125ah usable battery)

When you have 2 x 250ah 12v batteries in parallel, you get a total of 500ah in total capacity, but really it only yields about 250 amp hours of usable capacity.

Now, when you run 2 x 250ah 12v batteries in serial, you get 24v, but the capacity isn't additive, it stays consistent at 250ah total, but then really only half is usable, so effectively you only get 125ah usable from 2 x 250ah batteries at 24v. Because in series, you don't gain extra capacity, you gain volts.

In the end, if I can chose between 6 x 12v 250ah batteries which yields 750ah usable capacity at 12v (in parallel) , or if I wire them as 24v where it would yield about 375ah usable capacity, or if I added 2 more batteries and ran at 48v about 250ah usable capacity. I have to ask myself.

Is the extra efficiency of running at 48v, at 1/3rd the capacity, going to overcome the losses vs if I simply ran at 12v or even 24v?
__________________
2018 Grand Designs Momentum 376th
2009 Sportchassis RHA350 w/8.3 Cummins & Allison
Natebert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 11:27 AM   #38
Senior Member
 
Natebert's Avatar
 
Outdoors RV Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 250
Quote:
Originally Posted by baphenatem View Post
Nate, the thing that you are not comprehending is that your energy use is in Watt-Hours, not Amp-Hours. 200Ah at 12 Volts yields 2400 Watt-Hours or 2.4kWh, as does 100Ah at 24 Volts or 50Ah at 48V. There are a number of advantages to the higher voltage systems, not the least of which is that your wiring losses decrease by the square of the reduction of current flowing through them. i.e., cut the current by half and the loss in the same wire goes down to one-quarter. Not to mention it is a whole lot easier to get fewer parallel batteries to charge and balance correctly.
Obviously, I could use all the help I can get here then.
Given that Watt = Volt * Amp

Looking strictly at my DC consumption. I figured it would be roughly 1400 watts per day using my calculations below, which I though came out to about 116 amp hours DC per day.
(1400w/12v = 116amp hours vdc )



This DC draw will not be powered directly from the inverter battery bank, but going through the inverter and then through a converter with a 12vdc battery bank attached as a sort of capacitor.

The AC draw would be coming directly from the inverter and this is probably where I have miscalculated.

I'm now realizing that as the volts go up, my amp consumption goes down and does not stay consistent (therefore the demand on my capacity is also being reduced)

My capacity might be reduced each time I step up in voltage, but my draw also goes down.

SO while the usable capacity is less, my demands upon it will be less.
__________________
2018 Grand Designs Momentum 376th
2009 Sportchassis RHA350 w/8.3 Cummins & Allison
Natebert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 11:34 AM   #39
Senior Member
 
Natebert's Avatar
 
Outdoors RV Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 250
In summary,

running at 48v, I would expect then that the system is using 1/4th the draw than when running at 12v.

Bottom line, while we lose 1/4th the capacity, we also lose 1/4th the draw.

Therefore all things being equal in capacity/consumption, we gain efficiencies in running higher voltages due to less line loss.

So a 48v system would be more effective.
__________________
2018 Grand Designs Momentum 376th
2009 Sportchassis RHA350 w/8.3 Cummins & Allison
Natebert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 11:42 AM   #40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 1,172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natebert View Post
Guys, please let me know if/where I'm wrong here.

Considering if you run 12v batteries in parallel (to keep the volts at 12v for the entire system) you get additional capacity for each battery. If you run 12v batteries in series (you get higher volts, but at the cost of no additional capacity)

So taking into consideration from what I understand, a 12v, 250ah AGM deep cycle battery really doesn't hold 250ah of usable capacity. You really only get about 50% of this rated capacity before the volts drop too low to be usable. (so our 250ah battey now becomes a 125ah usable battery)

When you have 2 x 250ah 12v batteries in parallel, you get a total of 500ah in total capacity, but really it only yields about 250 amp hours of usable capacity.

Now, when you run 2 x 250ah 12v batteries in serial, you get 24v, but the capacity isn't additive, it stays consistent at 250ah total, but then really only half is usable, so effectively you only get 125ah usable from 2 x 250ah batteries at 24v. Because in series, you don't gain extra capacity, you gain volts.

In the end, if I can chose between 6 x 12v 250ah batteries which yields 750ah usable capacity at 12v (in parallel) , or if I wire them as 24v where it would yield about 375ah usable capacity, or if I added 2 more batteries and ran at 48v about 250ah usable capacity. I have to ask myself.

Is the extra efficiency of running at 48v, at 1/3rd the capacity, going to overcome the losses vs if I simply ran at 12v or even 24v?
This is where you are confused.

Ohms law is I= V/R.

Your confusing Ah and wh - Amp hour and Watt Hour. Remember, as your voltage doubles, your available ah at that voltage half BUT your total wh stays the same.

Typical 6v GC2 4 cell pack: 4x6v batteries at 208ah each. This is what I run.

So thats: 823ah@6V. 416ah @ 12V 208ah @ 24. Understand these are rated capacities, not useful capacities. Notice even though your ah rating goes down, its the same amount of batteries, and the same capacity.

Ok, so an easy way to look at this, and may help and become in clearer - is to convert it to watt hours. So whats a watt hour? Its a watt of energy used for an hour. Everyone converts this INTO amp hours to simplify life, but stick with me here.

So Lets take a 12 watt load, that is voltage agnostic, as in it will only pull 12w no matter the voltage in put.

12watts for an hour is 12wh right?

12wh/12v = 1ah. So running that 12w load for 1 hour on a 12v system takes 1ah of capacity from that system.

12wh/6v = 2ah. So running that 12w load for 1 hour on a 6v system takes 2ah of capacity from that system.

12wh/24v =.5ah So running that 12w load for 1 hour on a 24v system takes .5ah of capacity from that system.

Its the same amount of power used in the end, no matter what voltage you gave it.

The advantage to running higher voltage batteries packs, is you can run less current. Current through wires induces losses and voltage drop. This is especially important in solar and inverter wiring, where people typically undersized wiring, and don't understand why the systems don't perform.

12v wiring can be problematic, as you need big wires to move alot of current, for not much power. lets take your 1200 watt solar array.

lets assume that its at 1 sun - so full power. 1200 watts, and lets assume the panels will just put out 12v, instead of the more likely ~17v or so ok? These are a bit tweaked just so you can see the math.

1200 watts @ 12v = 100amps.
1200watts @ 24v = 50 amps
1200@48v = 25 amps.

Now you wanted a 30 foot run for that wiring to the controller right?

Again = I= V/R. Your going to notice R getting very big here very quickly.

for a 30 foot run @ 100 amps, and keeping under 2% voltage drop, you need = 2/0 cable. Or 4/0. That is a BIG Heavy Expensive cable.
for a 30 foot run @ 50amps - and keeping under 2% voltage drop, you need a 2 gauge cable. Still not cheap, and still big.
for a 30 foot run @ 25amps, and and keeping under 2% voltage drop, you need a 8 guage cable. Now your talking .Small light and cheap.

Understand that 2/0 wire is nearly .5" in diameter.

Same thing with your inverter load. My 1500watt inverter has 2 gauge wiring, and at full rated load - Roughly 12V@ 130amps, I am STILL seeing too much voltage drop on a 6 foot run. I either need to get bigger cables, or put the inverter closer to the batteries.

So the advantage of the higher voltage is not that you get more power in the end, because you wont, because its the same amount of batteries and cables, the same amount of wh....but in the EASE of moving it around, using smaller wires.

The DOWNSIDE of higher voltage, in a RV setting, is the fact that these things are setup to run on 12v already - so if you do indeed go to a 24v or 48v pack, accommodations needs to be made for all the 12v equipment.
__________________
2017 F-350 6.7 Diesel, CCSB SRW - 2005 F350 6.0
2018 Alpine 3660FL - 2005 Alfa SYF30RLIK
--Full time 2016 to 2019-- Seasonal now
mrgrayaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 12:04 PM   #41
Senior Member
 
Natebert's Avatar
 
Outdoors RV Owners Club
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 250
Thank you guys. Its beginning to come clearer in my head now.
__________________
2018 Grand Designs Momentum 376th
2009 Sportchassis RHA350 w/8.3 Cummins & Allison
Natebert is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-2017, 12:11 PM   #42
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: SLC, UT
Posts: 1,172
No problem!

As you can see, something like 120V is perfect (hmmm wonder why that is...) but it is just not realistic with a DC system in a RV - so we accept less...

and honestly, I've resigned myself to 12V. its just easier, though the wiring has to be bigger..


This is why running your AC units I think is a bit unrealistic - our unit pulls about 1amp per BTU- so with my 35k BTU's of AC, I'm pulling 35amps@120V. or 3600 watts.. 300amps @ 12. This would kill your theoretical 6 battery pack (6x208ah) which would have 300ah of usable capacity at 12v...in...less then an hour. and the more current you put on the batteries, the less they hold, which is a wierd chemical battery situation - point is, I could run my AC for less then an hour and kill nearly 400lbs worth of lead acid batteries capacity.. Not sustainable.

I have seen one gentlemen set a 40foot motorhome that way, and he had 16(!!!!!!) GC2 class batteries, dual 3000 watt xantrex inverters, and a 1700w array. Lotta money to keep the AC running. especially when you can just...move to a cooler spot. Or go lithium, but they are pricey.
__________________
2017 F-350 6.7 Diesel, CCSB SRW - 2005 F350 6.0
2018 Alpine 3660FL - 2005 Alfa SYF30RLIK
--Full time 2016 to 2019-- Seasonal now
mrgrayaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
boondocking, solar



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Boondocking vs. 'Boondocking' MonkeyClaw Boondocking 149 07-01-2021 04:17 AM
Boondocking guide. Boondocking Atlas. Rickndebw Boondocking 11 10-26-2016 04:38 PM
Suitcase Solar and semi-permanent install bjsweeney Going Green 3 11-12-2015 06:20 AM
semi-permanent structure nathanfox83 Vintage RV's 5 06-12-2007 05:52 PM

» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.